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Are all gods illiterate
- Thread starter outhouse
- Start date
Wait! I just remembered! Lord Ganesha sent a few letters (supposedly) to Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami, printed in his book Loving Ganesha. Here's one of them:
Glitter, glint and gleam your temples. Clean them well.
These are the twinkle that is seen by those who do not see.
Guard the gilded throne of Siva's stall.
Keep it well lit and open.
No night doth fall upon His Holy Form.
He is the Sun, both cold and warm.
Piercing vision of deep, inner spinning wheels
pierces through the twinkle and the clinkle of your temple Ferris wheel.
These enjoy the darshan flooding out. Those caught in chain-like
discs of darker hours see only glitter and the flowers.
When we come, as puja calls, we hardly see those
who cannot see. We see those who can, clear and
crisp, their wasp-like form in the temple,
they adorn lovingly the floors.
I tell you this, Saivite brahmin souls,
have no fear to shine the sparkle all the year.
Gild the gilded forms anew so that your temples
appear just built. Appeal to every chakra wheel; one spins one and then the other.
Gild -- the base, the rudder, the anchor of it all -- doth stimulate.
And sound, the one that hears. Smell, the controller of the glands.
And so, when chakras spin all through,
your temple will be always new.
Once you realize that some see, and others do not condescend to kneel, but
stand and look with open mouth as sight and sound rush in along with
drainage from the bath, be not afraid to open wide the door. Those who
enter will eventually prostrate on the floor.
Keep it clean, and gild and glint anew.
That is your job, what you have to do.
Love,
Lord Ganesha
The Satguru claims that he saw these appear written in golden letters on a scroll in the akasha (ether) while looking through the Third Eye.
If this is true, then I'd hardly say that at least Lord Ganesha, God of Knowledge, Wisdom, Science, Art, and other things, is hardly illiterate.
Glitter, glint and gleam your temples. Clean them well.
These are the twinkle that is seen by those who do not see.
Guard the gilded throne of Siva's stall.
Keep it well lit and open.
No night doth fall upon His Holy Form.
He is the Sun, both cold and warm.
Piercing vision of deep, inner spinning wheels
pierces through the twinkle and the clinkle of your temple Ferris wheel.
These enjoy the darshan flooding out. Those caught in chain-like
discs of darker hours see only glitter and the flowers.
When we come, as puja calls, we hardly see those
who cannot see. We see those who can, clear and
crisp, their wasp-like form in the temple,
they adorn lovingly the floors.
I tell you this, Saivite brahmin souls,
have no fear to shine the sparkle all the year.
Gild the gilded forms anew so that your temples
appear just built. Appeal to every chakra wheel; one spins one and then the other.
Gild -- the base, the rudder, the anchor of it all -- doth stimulate.
And sound, the one that hears. Smell, the controller of the glands.
And so, when chakras spin all through,
your temple will be always new.
Once you realize that some see, and others do not condescend to kneel, but
stand and look with open mouth as sight and sound rush in along with
drainage from the bath, be not afraid to open wide the door. Those who
enter will eventually prostrate on the floor.
Keep it clean, and gild and glint anew.
That is your job, what you have to do.
Love,
Lord Ganesha
The Satguru claims that he saw these appear written in golden letters on a scroll in the akasha (ether) while looking through the Third Eye.
If this is true, then I'd hardly say that at least Lord Ganesha, God of Knowledge, Wisdom, Science, Art, and other things, is hardly illiterate.
I think I agree.
Natural order exists. It creates (or I would say manifests) human form (ergo human hands). Yadda yadda yadda, we evolved, grew in awareness of the order, shared understandings and (finite) knowledge grew.
To me the "natural order" is sentient through us. And I entertain the idea that it is not through us alone. Since our biases define "what is intelligence / rational" it is incredibly challenging to argue 'the entire cosmos is sentient.'
And I do think it is folly to ask, why didn't the natural order write down its understandings before humans arrived on the scene, for the benefit of humanity? Especially since it is 'written,' though not in ways that we insist on communication having to occur.
If it wasn't 'written' I don't think a) we would have shared knowledge nor b) would we be sentient. Bit of a catch-22 on that last one, but it is what it is.
Kriya Yogi
Dharma and Love for God
The proof of true dietys words are the results practitioners receive by faithfully and persistently practicing their laws or ways to find God. For example with my Guru in which I believe to be a full expression of divinity and a messenger of God tells us and gives us the keys to the doorway to God. These disciples follow and after a few years realize that his words are true. The disciples find God and even more find God then there is your external proof. Their confirmation to back the Gurus confirmation. Knowing atheists that is not good enough.
Internal proof however is much more substantial and convincing. If we apply wisdom and realize that maybe just maybe all these Yogis are telling the truth that maybe I should apply these teachings in my own life. If the initial results are in line with the Gurus or Yogis explanations thus far then you have just strenghtened your faith that if this Guru or diety was right about all this thus far what are the chances he is right about finding God just as all the others claim as well? You see my point proof will never be found until we choose to apply different claims and teachings to our lives. Then and only then will we realize that the one you followed is a true Diety and is literate for he truly knows God. Acim is right discrimination must be used.
Dietys could yell from the heavens that their way is the way. They could perform miracles but would anyone believe them to be true messengers of God? God allows all men to use their own free will to choose what they want to choose. It is up to us to read or follow what makes sense to us. Then and only then will true wisdom be known. Then you will know by personal experience that the teacher is true.
outhouse
Atheistically
Thank you for posting that, I liked it.
I would only have to say that it is not confirmed that ganesha wrote anything allthough he has work attributed to him.
much like god is said to have written the ten commandments
outhouse
Atheistically
not really proof, but I find its just opinion
I dont think one has to try and find a hidden god, if gods wants you to find him he could easily do so. if he existed at all, he would find you.
Thinking you know a deity does not make one, no matter how well you may chat with one.
Absolutley
send one over to see me in 5 minutes, if he shows ill gladly tell the whole world about your deity without a miracle.
better yet keeping on topic, have him write a book with a glowing cover and see through pages and skip all the miracles.
fact is, people even most atheist would love to believe in a higherpower if one existed
it really would not take much at all and you would have a mass following.
But for many of us,,,,,,,, it will take more then ancient mans beliefs from a time when gods were created a dime a dozen. Thats no proof for a god, only against
waitasec
Veteran Member
thank you for that... and this:
"...Present, past, future, no more for me,
But ever-present, all-flowing I, I, everywhere..."
is something i can relate to
:beach:
we're all growing....in our own time.
Kriya Yogi
Dharma and Love for God
Its at least enough to pay attention to it, unless you believe all these saints are lying.
We do since God gave us free will to choose how we want to live.
It does if I know him to be true through my own experiences. I don't just take his word for it. I practice what he preaches, get the same results he did and therefore know he's truthful and knows what he's talking about. Just like anything I've confirmed his words to be true in my own experience. That is what I'm saying everyone must do before they truly believe like I do.
My Guru said that they will only perform miracles for those that are sincerely searching for God. God Realized beings perform miracles all the time but they choose not to do them publicly because God wants people to live their own lives as they want. Jesus performed miracles all the time but what did people do? Rather than believe him they crucified him. God Realized beings do not flaunt their powers. That would contradict their lack of ego or wisdom to let people live. They only want to attract disciples that seek out their wisdom and guidance. Not because they can perform miracles. The road to God is not a circus. Noone will ever find God if they are looking for a show of miracles. If you want his love and freedom then you are worthy.
Kriya Yogi
Dharma and Love for God
thank you for that... and this:
"...Present, past, future, no more for me,
But ever-present, all-flowing I, I, everywhere..."
is something i can relate to
:beach:
we're all growing....in our own time.
Not a problem brother. Thanks for at least understanding.
outhouse
Atheistically
I dont think their lying at all
they interpret what they beieve
OK heres my point.
In the terrible event someone popped a cap in his head, he would die. That makes him not a deity but a human being, homo sapien. Like the rest of us.
I dont buy nor will you prove a sentence of all that
Kriya Yogi
Dharma and Love for God
They express what they've experienced. Experiences turn belief into knowing.
Only if he allowed it to happen. My Guru would know if something like that was coming his way. If he was meant to die that way then he would allow it to happen. He could also easily ressurect himself just as his Guru Swami Sri Yukteswar did and as Jesus did. There is nothing beyond their power if God willing. I know you won't believe that until you see it though so I'm wasting my breath here.
Doesn't it make sense though that if a God Realized being having no ego and full of wisdom would not flaunt their God given powers without God's permission? That would mean they still have an ego and are not wise. It's fine that you don't buy this stuff. Just don't write it off as untrue just because you choose not to believe it. That would be unwise.
outhouse
Atheistically
experiences turn belief into faith, until you provide evidence which you cannot.
yes you are trying to pawn off the idea people are magic
its fine you have faith in their magic, just dont try and sell that to others.
one more time to clear all this up. You have faith, not proof.
Not trying to be a jerk here, but does this sentence really make sense to you?
Kriya Yogi
Dharma and Love for God
Not if these experiences reveal God and are convincing to every atom.
Not magic, but have divinity and can express God's unlimited powers.
Not really selling it. Just trying to get you to realize that you shouldn't write stuff off as untrue until you really truly know for sure. There is always a possibility for new changes in perspective.
I have my own personal proof brother.
outhouse
Atheistically
Are you saying, persons of faith will not debate / discuss beliefs of the God they (or we) are certain exists?
IMO, that debate occurs all the time. On this forum, many forums, offline and so forth.
What I see often occurring between believers and those that think such beliefs amount to wishful thinking is that assumptions and/or axioms are to be accepted in order for the debate to proceed. Far more often than not, I see this acceptance arriving later into the discussion rather than at onset as formal debate generally would suggest. IMO, it doesn't really really matter when it occurs, but when less formal debate happens and certain axioms are being nitpicked to death, it can (I think often does) get to point where deliberation and civility are set aside for sound bite logic and one upmanship. Or it devolves into "us" vs "them" thing, rather than idea of "we're all in this together."
I believe it is, rather simply, desire to interpret awareness of the past with different aim(s) in mind.
There is also philosophical discussion, ongoing debate, of whether past exists. For some faithful and (I think) many evolutionist types, it absolutely exists and there is abundance of evidence that demonstrates this. Me, I don't understand why remote past matters. Doesn't mean I won't think about it or have discussion about it, but I am suspect or skeptical if you will about how this could possibly matter now.
True, such a conception of god would be challenging to disprove. To me, it would be less challenging to realize (and convince others of) how impractical such a god would be to current circumstances.
I believe Creator God is hidden in the materialistic sense. And this goes back to point of axioms must be accepted in debates in order for progress to be made. For if one is saying, "all we have is what our physical eyes (or senses) can see (or detect)" and is unwilling to budge on that, then it could be a debate that doesn't advance. Perhaps it could, in my experience it generally doesn't. People vent, say what they came to say, no one is persuaded to consider alternative understandings to convictions they held going in.
Many times elsewhere, I have asked for objective proof that establishes existence of the human body? Meaning, you (or we) cannot use physical senses to detect this (alleged) item and call that "proof." Thus far, I have not seen that proof / evidence. I have seen many attempts, not one yet that I would call convincing. And at same time, I mostly believe and often act as if I am in a human body. As if the proof doesn't really matter to me.
I bring this up, because without this axiom - that physical reality must be existing since "I" can "see" it, it opens the door, I truly believe, to how one could arrive at alternative conclusion that Divine / supernatural / spirit does exist. Further understanding that to "see" God, one must accept axiom that (actual) vision doesn't occur through the body's eyes. Faith could be described as the other way in which we (truly) see, though I might call it something else. I could make case that it is Reason which sees not through the body's eyes. Or I might say it is creativity. All I do know (or understand) is after seeing in this manner, and coming back here, it is challenging to adopt external methods of 'seeing' to that type of vision. Challenging to call that "what it is" without confusing things a bit. But not impossible.
And I would say anything we actually do "have" is because of this type of God (Creator). For surely we don't "have" the past. We cannot experience the past. And we for sure cannot experience a past that predates our physical selves (aka humanity). While we can have awareness of (of what we deem) past correlations and thus understandings of what sure as heck appears as part of a causal chain of physical events. But in reality, we have "awareness" and "understanding" while we wouldn't have history.
In my spiritual understanding we (or I) do have and always will have access to truth of who we are (now). That access is found within, and not over there somewhere way beyond the ether, or not sometime way after I die, but in literally a place I cannot not find it. Though I can, theoretically, deny it.
The access to our inner truth (or being, if you prefer) is another awareness thing. It is, IMO, based on Reason, and only if you are new to consciously 'seeing,' is it based on faith, in what might be called 'the unknown.'
Now, coming back to this topic, I would say that, it really is not a stretch or leap of faith to understand that written words by human hands, are given to us by (Creator) God. It could be that "God" is huge leap of faith, and unreasonable to some reading this. That, I think, has to do mostly with how attuned one's inner awareness is (and/or allowed to be) and how willing, for sake of discussion, one is to accept other terms for "God." I think agnostic types would be more willing to accept other terms (like Life, or Natural Order) than an orthodox believer might, who might insist we either call it "God" or "Allah" or we have broken some rule that is so sacred it renders the debate unable to continue.
As I alluded to earlier in this thread, "have I not said ye are gods?" -- tells me that the messages we write, collectively, are divine. Perhaps not all of them, though I do intellectually believe all of them. I really do. I feel discernment enters in to help sort the messages into those that align with "path to Creator God," and then "other." I may call "other" by many other terms.
But that's just Me.
Kriya Yogi
Dharma and Love for God
Babaji once said that few humans realize that heaven and Godliness extend to these realms on earth. God realization has no boundaries to where it can occur. It occurs in your own consciousness no matter where you may be living and experiencing. Jesus was a diety and he had to be born and still go through the motions to reawaken himself in God. He wasn't born with God consiousness although he became God realized in another life. The same thing happened with my Guru. After he became God Realized he saw his former incarnations and realized that in order to serve as an example for disciples he had to go through the motions of meeting his Guru and then meditating with discipline to reawake in God once again even though he knew in a previous life he had already found God. Also he did not die a mortal death. At his death and many witnesses were there; he consciously left his body. He was talking to everyone that night that he would be doing a mahasamadhi and leaving his body to soar in God. Many disciples alive to this day can give testimony to this. My Guru was lecturing and after he was done with his speech fully healthy gave some parting words, closed his eyes and consciously stopped his breath and left his body. Another crazy thing about his death is that his body did not show one sign of decay months after his death and there was no bad smell. He lived a mortal life but was immortal and was an Avatar that knew God.
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outhouse
Atheistically
that is still up for debate and in no way settled, as a matter offact historical jesus was a mortal man
one or the other, you dont get cake and ice cream here. he was not immortal as he is dead and gone.
end of story, he was not a deity in anyones eyes but the faithful.
NOW thats not what this thread is about. Its more about deitys and their lack of communication skill to the common man.