I still find it amusing that your are making judgment calls about what God would do. You are not God and you have no idea why He does what He does. Why do you persist in saying, "If God were all-powerful He would do this"? You don't know what an all-powerful being WOULD do any more than you know what the moon smells like.
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The 'Trinity' of Religious Contradiction
- Thread starter Ceridwen018
- Start date
Mr Spinkles
Mr
dan-- I'm not making judgement calls, this is simple logic. If God is all powerful, evil only exists if a) He wants it to or b) He doesn't care if it exists. You would propose c) Evil, though undesired, is necessary for God to acheive other purposes.
However, I'm saying that if one is all powerful then no undesirables are "required" to acheive one's purposes....suggesting that God is somehow "forced" unwillingly to allow evil in order to accomplish something else is to suggest that God is not, in fact, all powerful. So we can throw c) out the window. It makes perfect sense, dan, you just have to be willing to suspend your a priori beliefs and think critically.
However, I'm saying that if one is all powerful then no undesirables are "required" to acheive one's purposes....suggesting that God is somehow "forced" unwillingly to allow evil in order to accomplish something else is to suggest that God is not, in fact, all powerful. So we can throw c) out the window. It makes perfect sense, dan, you just have to be willing to suspend your a priori beliefs and think critically.
(Q) said:
Because I know Him very well. I have a very good relationship with Him and I understand His will very well. I have studied the scriptures very well and have received much in the way of inspiration and revelation. Your reasoning is based on nothing more than your own understanding of this world.
Why do you keep calling me Mr. Pot?
Mr_Spinkles said:
My understanding in this area is completely a posteriori. I lived twenty years of my life as an atheist before God found me. I didn't find Him, He came for me, and everything I know has been shown to me through my experiences and those of others. I have received inspiration from Him on many occasions and consider that to be a posteriori as well.
God has set rules and regulations for us and for Himself. He is not bound by them by anything but His own integrity. There is a sociality that exists in His world, and He lives by those rules. Evil is simply an option that He went with. What His other options were, I don't know, but here we are. He willingly allows evil to exist for some reason, and I don't try to second guess Him, I just do the best with what I've got.
Christ Michael
Member
Evil in our universe is only POTENTIAL. Jesus was able to live a PERFECT (sinless) life because he SPIRITUALIZED HIS MIND by doing the "will of The Father". All of us will have to do the same thing before we can ascend to The Father.
Cheers
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
And you assumption that you know god 'very well' is based on your own understanding of the scriptures. What makes you so sure of yourself?
You see, thats part of the problem though. God isn't showing a whole lot of integrity by allowing meaningless suffering in the world. This trinity does not disprove god. It merely calls his supposed 'all good' nature into question.
We must always try to do what's best with what we've got, however, by not questioning god, you are doing yourself a great disservice. God gave you a questioning nature--why don't you use it? What if you were to find that things didn't hold up to questioning? You are running the risk of missing real truth here. Also, by admitting that god could have chosen something else besides evil, but ultimately decided to go with evil as the dominant color in the world's living room, you are admitting that god WANTS evil...what kind of good god would want evil?
Mr Spinkles
Mr
I see, so when I (admittedly) speculate on God's potential abilities and motivations, I "have no idea why He does what He does" but you, on the other hand, are allowed to share your views as much as you want because you are special and your views are correct. How could I have been so arrogant?
There is a big problem with this: Christians (and many others) believe God is an all good entity. Evil is, by definition, the exact opposite of good. An all good God choosing the evil 'option' makes no sense whatsoever when there was also a no-evil 'option'. You're only recourse now is to say "It doesn't make sense to US, but only because we humans lack the intelligence to comprehend it".
By the way, if you send me a bunch of money you'll earn money. I know it doesn't make sense to you, but trust me it would make sense if you knew more about economics.
You make some good points dan, but let me be clear on one thing: I am not asking you to question God, I am asking you to question human-made beliefs about God. There is a big difference.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Thank you for editing your post. 
SpiritualSon
Member
To All,
There is very little evidence in the Old Testament for a trinity of Persons.There is no real evidence at all in the Old Testament for a trinity of three persons. Search it as you will, the only things you may seize upon to confirm a trinity are the words, "Let us make man in our image" and the three angels that appeared to Abraham to tell him of Isaac's birth. The first one is dearly a plural of majesty, for it goes on to say, "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him." (Genesis 1:27) It does not say, "created They him!" It also doesn't say in Genesis 1:1,"In the beginning the gods created heaven and earth.
In regard to the occasion when three angels appeared to Abraham, if we argued that the three angels represents the three Divine persons in one God, we might just as well argue that God is a multitude, for a multitude of angels appeared to the shepherds in Bethlehem on Christmas night. Furthermore, in the next chapter of Genesis only two angels appeared to Lot. If they represented the trinity, who was left out? We all believe one angel was sent to Mary.
But let us look at the other side of the picture from the Old Testament. What evidence of God in one person does it give? We find it full of statements which declare this truth. "Hear, Oh Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord." (Dent. 6:4) This is so definite, so positive, so clear. Or consider Isaiah 43:11, "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside Me there is no Savior." Imagine, if there had been a trinity of persons from eternity, the Father looking and seeing no Savior, passing by the Son as if He did not exist. Yet according to the Athanasian Creed, which all Christian orthodoxy swears by, "The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God; the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord, yet there be not three Gods and three Lords, but one God and one Lord."
There is not the least shadow of a doubt that there is a trinity in God. That is not the point. The point is: Is God a trinity of Persons, or is God one Person in whom dwelleth a trinity of attributes? The New Church believes that He is not a trinity of persons. A belief in a trinity of persons must lead inevitably, although perhaps not explicitly, to a belief in three separate Divine Beings, which amounts to a belief in three Gods, because to each Person in the Trinity is assigned a different office or function to perform, as that the Father is the Creator, the Son is the Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier. The New Church believes in a trinity, but it believes that it is a trinity of functions that cluster about one Personality who is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Harry
There is very little evidence in the Old Testament for a trinity of Persons.There is no real evidence at all in the Old Testament for a trinity of three persons. Search it as you will, the only things you may seize upon to confirm a trinity are the words, "Let us make man in our image" and the three angels that appeared to Abraham to tell him of Isaac's birth. The first one is dearly a plural of majesty, for it goes on to say, "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him." (Genesis 1:27) It does not say, "created They him!" It also doesn't say in Genesis 1:1,"In the beginning the gods created heaven and earth.
In regard to the occasion when three angels appeared to Abraham, if we argued that the three angels represents the three Divine persons in one God, we might just as well argue that God is a multitude, for a multitude of angels appeared to the shepherds in Bethlehem on Christmas night. Furthermore, in the next chapter of Genesis only two angels appeared to Lot. If they represented the trinity, who was left out? We all believe one angel was sent to Mary.
But let us look at the other side of the picture from the Old Testament. What evidence of God in one person does it give? We find it full of statements which declare this truth. "Hear, Oh Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord." (Dent. 6:4) This is so definite, so positive, so clear. Or consider Isaiah 43:11, "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside Me there is no Savior." Imagine, if there had been a trinity of persons from eternity, the Father looking and seeing no Savior, passing by the Son as if He did not exist. Yet according to the Athanasian Creed, which all Christian orthodoxy swears by, "The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God; the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord, yet there be not three Gods and three Lords, but one God and one Lord."
There is not the least shadow of a doubt that there is a trinity in God. That is not the point. The point is: Is God a trinity of Persons, or is God one Person in whom dwelleth a trinity of attributes? The New Church believes that He is not a trinity of persons. A belief in a trinity of persons must lead inevitably, although perhaps not explicitly, to a belief in three separate Divine Beings, which amounts to a belief in three Gods, because to each Person in the Trinity is assigned a different office or function to perform, as that the Father is the Creator, the Son is the Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier. The New Church believes in a trinity, but it believes that it is a trinity of functions that cluster about one Personality who is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Harry
Paraprakrti
Custom User
Re-addressing the thread
The trinity:
-God is all powerful
-God exists (what do you mean to write specifically, "in the world"?)
-God does not want evil to exist
The question then is why does God not want evil to exist? First of all, if God is full in all qualities, then what can God possibly desire for Himself personally??? Absoutely nothing. That is a fact. Now then, why does God say that He does not want evil to exist? Because of us! Because we desire to be free from the suffering of evil. Man proposes, God disposes. Everything God desires is to benefit those who lack. God is never lacking. Therefore God does not want evil to exist because we don't want evil to exist. Unfortunately, we make choices that are detrimental to our constitutional position as part and parcel of God. These choices result in our falling into ignorance. This ignorance constitutes "evil". Evil is simply lack of God. Who will argue me on that? We don't want to suffer and God knows this, but we make choices that lead us into suffering because they constitue our ignorance of the reservoir of pleasure, God.
I hope this clears the whole thing up.
The trinity:
-God is all powerful
-God exists (what do you mean to write specifically, "in the world"?)
-God does not want evil to exist
The question then is why does God not want evil to exist? First of all, if God is full in all qualities, then what can God possibly desire for Himself personally??? Absoutely nothing. That is a fact. Now then, why does God say that He does not want evil to exist? Because of us! Because we desire to be free from the suffering of evil. Man proposes, God disposes. Everything God desires is to benefit those who lack. God is never lacking. Therefore God does not want evil to exist because we don't want evil to exist. Unfortunately, we make choices that are detrimental to our constitutional position as part and parcel of God. These choices result in our falling into ignorance. This ignorance constitutes "evil". Evil is simply lack of God. Who will argue me on that? We don't want to suffer and God knows this, but we make choices that lead us into suffering because they constitue our ignorance of the reservoir of pleasure, God.
I hope this clears the whole thing up.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
LOL, no, it doesn't clear anything up at all! Your arguments are basically what all the other theists have said so far, and Ceridwen and I have already refuted them...you need to read more of this thread, because I can't possibly go into this debate for a second time lol
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
For some reason, I thoroughly enjoy this particular topic. To save you from having to go back and re-read all 28 pages, I'll try to summarize the key refutations.
If you believe in the bible, then you also believe that god has certain human characteristics, such as anger, mercy, happiness, wrath, whatever. The ability to desire fits right in on this list.
fact
n.
It is pretty widely accepted that god and the devil are strict adversaries, intent on destroying each other. Because the devil is the definition of evil, god indirectly 'desires' to destroy evil. Case closed?
So he doesn't desire that we love and respect him? He doesn't desire that we not do evil?
If you believe in the bible, then you also believe that god has certain human characteristics, such as anger, mercy, happiness, wrath, whatever. The ability to desire fits right in on this list.
As told by dictionary.com:
fact
n.
- Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
- <LI type=a>Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact. <LI type=a>A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
- Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
- A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
- Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.
This fits along with the idea that god is but a projection of ourselves--FUBU, if you will, but that's not what's under discussion now.
You mean, "If god desired, he would desire everything which benefits those who lack". However, we have already concluded that god doesn't desire, haven't we?
This is where the beef of the argument is, I think. Why doesn't god take away ignorance and suffering? The point here is, is that we don't need evil, pain, and suffering to have free will. As far as those things being the absence of god, that doesn't seem to be true either. many people have suffered at the hands of god.
It is pretty widely accepted that god and the devil are strict adversaries, intent on destroying each other. Because the devil is the definition of evil, god indirectly 'desires' to destroy evil. Case closed?
'Fraid not, Honey;
HaShem is Good, created Good, said of creation, it is very good. And it was Good.
Why did he allow evil? I don't know! I was not there when He did it. He didn't ask for your opinion either. You are free to question his wisdom! I would not advise it! But you are free to do so, at your own peril.
When the time comes, He will re-create this World and it will be peopled by those who believed and obeyed. "Sterling Silver" Perfected people who serve Him in this World will populate the world to come.
Those people will not call Him a liar when He says "The Lord Your God is ONE/ECHAD."
Yes, my Dear, The 'Trinity' of Religious Contradiction.
HaShem is Good, created Good, said of creation, it is very good. And it was Good.
Why did he allow evil? I don't know! I was not there when He did it. He didn't ask for your opinion either. You are free to question his wisdom! I would not advise it! But you are free to do so, at your own peril.
When the time comes, He will re-create this World and it will be peopled by those who believed and obeyed. "Sterling Silver" Perfected people who serve Him in this World will populate the world to come.
Those people will not call Him a liar when He says "The Lord Your God is ONE/ECHAD."
Yes, my Dear, The 'Trinity' of Religious Contradiction.
Paraprakrti
Custom User
Ceridwen018 said:
We have only concluded that God's desires are to benefit those who have something to benefit from. In other words, that God does not desire for Himself.
Ceridwen018 said:
My reply to your paragraph above already addresses and completely explains the concept of God's desiring.
Ceridwen018 said:
No, you must have misunderstood what I was saying to be fact. I was saying that based on the understanding that God lacks nothing, God does not desire for Himself, is a fact. To say or think that God must desire for His personal benefit is illogical and cannot possibly be a fact. God has no need to endeavor for personal satisfaction. God is eternally satisfied. Here are more facts for you.
Ceridwen018 said:
Nor am I advocating this concept.
Ceridwen018 said:
No, we haven't. We have concluded that God doesn't desire for His own benefit, not that God does not desire at all. Your idea of desire is self-centered. That is why you have difficulty understanding God.
Ceridwen018 said:
God doesn't take away suffering because we choose to suffer, indirectly of course. We make choices that lead us into ignorance of God. Ignorance means suffering. God gives us so many facilities in order to understand how to transcend suffering, but many do not accept. Suffering is good because it wakes us up. God is trying to wake you up. Once you become awake there will be no question of suffering. God knows you want to be happy, but He also knows that you will be the most happy if you are not in ignorance of your eternal relationship to the Supreme Absolute Truth. Evil is the absence of God in that it is ignorance of God. To clarify, I am not saying that God is not there. God is always there, but we are ignorant to that fact. That is what I mean by "evil is lack of God". Suffering at the hands of God means that we are still asleep.
Ceridwen018 said:
No, I have no comment on the Biblical version. You can speculate on that all day...
All I am saying is that God only desires to please those who need pleasing. If we hadn't chose to be without God then we woudn't need pleasing because we are eternally pleased being directly associated with God.
Your difficulty is that you want to be without God and be eternally pleased at the same time. But herein I will define "eternally pleased" as, "being directly associated with God". You want God to change this definition, but why should He when He is the perfect definition?? All that matters is that you desire to be fulfilled and God is beckoning you to return to His association in order to be fulfilled. Still you reject. What can be done? I guess it is thus easier for you to negate the existence of God altogether rather than surrender your ego.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
There are three possible explanations: 1)God is indifferent to/wills evil, 2)God was unable to prevent evil, or your best hope is 3)Ronald said:
In which case the discussion is over.
No one is questioning God, silly--we are questioning claims made by humans. I've said it before and I'll say it again: when theists say "Don't question God!" what they really mean is "Don't question me!". Get off your high horses, fellas, because you ain't God and I have every right to question you.
Here is the basic rundown of the argument in the Trinity of Religious Contradiction:
Evil and suffering exist in the world. So, if God exists, He is either 1) not all powerful (and therefore unable to prevent evil/suffering) or 2)wills or is indifferent to evil/suffering.
Many have tried to counter by saying that God wants us to grow, and the only way we can grow is through suffering. So God doesn't 'want' evil/suffering but he does want us to grow. However, in order for that argument to work, one has to assume that God is UNABLE to allow human growth by any means other than through suffering. In other words, this argument puts limits on God's power and therefore refutes 2) only to agree with 1).
Others have said that God does not want evil/suffering, but He gives us free will and we bring it upon ourselves. There are numerous problems with this argument: 1) it fails to adress the evil/suffering that is not caused by man's actions (disease, birth defects)
2) man could still have free will even if God restricted our choices by taking away our ability to murder, rape, torture, etc.
3) the argument suggests that giving humans free will is more important to God than destroying evil...in other words, the absence of free will is 'more evil' than evil itself. It also calls into question God's ability to create a perfect universe or for heaven to be perfect, as either a)no one has free will in heaven or b)heaven is not perfect,
But most importantly---
4) this argument again puts limits on God's power, by assuming that it is impossible for God to give us free will and prevent us from doing evil at the same time....so once again we have agreement with the original explanation that God is not all powerful.
Gee Whiz Sprinkles you are right I should be smart enough to convince you of the Truth. Good for you and your Christian Spirit, you certainly put the old man in his place.
I'm sorry, you have done no such thing! If I were able to reveal God any better than He has, I would be God. No one can reveal further than He, Himself did through the Torah
All through the TaNaCh, God has revealed as much as he wished to reveal. As Yeshua taught in parables, God is refining silver, one must seek to find, one must be aware he is lost to search for the WAY.
Read Isaiah 40:12-14, I will be the first to tell you. It Wasn't Me! Especially #13.
As they say "There is no fool like an old fool." And yes, I am aware you are not a professing Christian! LOL
I'm sorry, you have done no such thing! If I were able to reveal God any better than He has, I would be God. No one can reveal further than He, Himself did through the Torah
All through the TaNaCh, God has revealed as much as he wished to reveal. As Yeshua taught in parables, God is refining silver, one must seek to find, one must be aware he is lost to search for the WAY.
Read Isaiah 40:12-14, I will be the first to tell you. It Wasn't Me! Especially #13.
As they say "There is no fool like an old fool." And yes, I am aware you are not a professing Christian! LOL