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is genesis 8:21 a fallacy?

waitasec

Veteran Member
never mind the flood, lets talk about why there was a supposed flood in the first place.

genesis 6:5
5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time....

8:18 So Noah came out, together with his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives. 19 All the animals and all the creatures that move along the ground and all the birds—everything that moves on land—came out of the ark, one kind after another.

20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
(niv)



so what i gather from this is; god nearly destroyed all of mankind, save a descendent of abraham, because every inclination of mankind is evil and vowed not to do it again even though mankind will continue to be inclined to be evil, is that right?
so why just not obliterate mankind altogether and start over, because god is omniscient, right? but why then did god regret creating mankind?

genesis 6

6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I have always stated that if the bible was literally true the god charactor was the biggest mass murderer ever known to mankind.

the part about enjoying burning animal flesh is beyond me other then maybe it was a way ancient hebrews got high. Someone sated once there are hallucinogenic properties in burning animal carcasses.

so what i gather from this is; god nearly destroyed all of mankind, save a descendent of abraham, because every inclination of mankind is evil and vowed not to do it again even though mankind will continue to be inclined to be evil, is that right?
so why just not obliterate mankind altogether and start over, because god is omniscient, right? but why then did god regret creating mankind?

trying to literally explainthis hurts my head ;) logic and reason dont really apply no matter how you slice it.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I have always stated that if the bible was literally true the god charactor was the biggest mass murderer ever known to mankind.

the part about enjoying burning animal flesh is beyond me other then maybe it was a way ancient hebrews got high. Someone sated once there are hallucinogenic properties in burning animal carcasses.



trying to literally explainthis hurts my head ;) logic and reason dont really apply no matter how you slice it.

i know, it seems to be a conversation for those who claim to have reconciled this quandary try to avoid...wonder why? :shrug:
 

outhouse

Atheistically
i know, it seems to be a conversation for those who claim to have reconciled this quandary try to avoid...wonder why? :shrug:


I have been accusing many that they pick and choose which scripture they put faith in while ignoring areas they dont or dont want to understand.


in thi scase I think you would get a better arguement in the general section on the front page.

My thread was dead here and once on the front page it grew wings lol :p
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I have been accusing many that they pick and choose which scripture they put faith in while ignoring areas they dont or dont want to understand.


in thi scase I think you would get a better arguement in the general section on the front page.

My thread was dead here and once on the front page it grew wings lol :p

quite right, that is an interesting observation.
thnx...
 
waitasec said:
god nearly destroyed all of mankind, save a descendent of abraham, because every inclination of mankind is evil and vowed not to do it again even though mankind will continue to be inclined to be evil, is that right?
:facepalm:No, that's not right (well, I don't think it's right.) Firstly, Noah's genealogy is detailed in Gen 5. Abram is shown to be one of Terah's descendants in Gen 11. Terah is not mentioned in Noah's genealogy. Jesus' genealogy in Luke 3 shows Terah (and Abraham) to have been descended from Noah. What exactly leads you to believe that Noah was a descendant of Abraham?
Secondly, I'd say that it was because man (or at least a vast majority of man) had acted on the evil inclination of his heart and the wickedness of man was great in the earth. This great wickedness is what led to the flood.
Thirdly, God references cursing the ground, (Adam's disobedience) which is separate to smiting (almost) every living thing (wickedness of man being great,) even though the inclinations of mans’ hearts is evil from youth. This passage makes no mention of what God will do if wickedness of man becomes great again (man actually acts on the evil inclinations; cup of iniquity.) Also, that promise of not smiting everyone again is only good for a time (lights in the firmament.)

waitasec said:
so why just not obliterate mankind altogether and start over...?
Why destroy the righteous? Destroying the righteous doesn't seem to line up with God's character throughout the rest of the Bible. The Bible continually shows God rescuing the righteous both from and out of various perils; Enoch + Noah (flood,) Abraham + Lot (Sodom,) Daniel + Hananiah, Mishael, Azariah (furnace.) Although Noah would have also been inclined to do evil (disobey God,) it seems that he chose not to and therefore God found him righteous in his generation.

waitasec said:
but why then did god regret creating mankind?
The word translated to "regret" probably doesn't mean "regret" in this passage. In fact in other passages it's translated as "comforted," (although I don't think "comforted" is applicable here either.) In any case, some deeper study of that word and the context is probably required to figure out exactly how God felt and why He felt that way, but from the previous verses, whichever way He felt, it was probably because of man acting on the evil inclinations of his heart by not doing what God instructed, which resulted in great wickedness in the earth.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
:facepalm:No, that's not right (well, I don't think it's right.) Firstly, Noah's genealogy is detailed in Gen 5. Abram is shown to be one of Terah's descendants in Gen 11. Terah is not mentioned in Noah's genealogy. Jesus' genealogy in Luke 3 shows Terah (and Abraham) to have been descended from Noah. What exactly leads you to believe that Noah was a descendant of Abraham?
oops, i got it backwards...thanks, i'll fix that detail.
edit: too late, i can't
Secondly, I'd say that it was because man (or at least a vast majority of man) had acted on the evil inclination of his heart and the wickedness of man was great in the earth. This great wickedness is what led to the flood.
Thirdly, God references cursing the ground, (Adam's disobedience) which is separate to smiting (almost) every living thing (wickedness of man being great,) even though the inclinations of mans’ hearts is evil from youth. This passage makes no mention of what God will do if wickedness of man becomes great again (man actually acts on the evil inclinations; cup of iniquity.) Also, that promise of not smiting everyone again is only good for a time (lights in the firmament.)
yeah, but that still doesn't get to the point i'm making. read gen 8:21...
yes there was wickedness, and god admitted that man will continue to be wicked and regretted for creating mankind...
he's the creator, he could have made an upgraded version 1.1 ... ;)


Why destroy the righteous? Destroying the righteous doesn't seem to line up with God's character throughout the rest of the Bible. The Bible continually shows God rescuing the righteous both from and out of various perils; Enoch + Noah (flood,) Abraham + Lot (Sodom,) Daniel + Hananiah, Mishael, Azariah (furnace.) Although Noah would have also been inclined to do evil (disobey God,) it seems that he chose not to and therefore God found him righteous in his generation.
ah well, there was enoch...who was taken away...
genesis 5:21-24
21 When Enoch ,the son of Jared, had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.


so if he took enoch away, i'm sure god had enough room for noah and his family...


The word translated to "regret" probably doesn't mean "regret" in this passage. In fact in other passages it's translated as "comforted," (although I don't think "comforted" is applicable here either.) In any case, some deeper study of that word and the context is probably required to figure out exactly how God felt and why He felt that way, but from the previous verses, whichever way He felt, it was probably because of man acting on the evil inclinations of his heart by not doing what God instructed, which resulted in great wickedness in the earth.

ok, then why obliterate mankind if he was so mad/unhappy at what he created...isn't god omniscient? or omniscient doesn't mean all knowing...:rolleyes:
 
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james2ko

Well-Known Member
never mind the flood, lets talk about why there was a supposed flood in the first place. so what i gather from this is; god nearly destroyed all of mankind, save a descendent of abraham, because every inclination of mankind is evil and vowed not to do it again even though mankind will continue to be inclined to be evil, is that right?

No. Read the fine print:
Gen 9:11 Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth."
Scripture indicates He will once again destroy or "baptize" the surface of the earth only this time with fire. (Mat 3:11; 2 Pet 3:7)

so why just not obliterate mankind altogether and start over, because god is omniscient, right?

And we're not. So it would be supercilious as well as illogical for us to think we know better than someone who is, right?

but why then did god regret creating mankind?

The Hebrew root behind all the words variously translated as "relent," "repent," "be sorry" and "grieve" is "nacham". In its origins the root may well have reflected the idea of breathing, sighing deeply, or pity. It suggests a physical display of one’s feelings--sorrow, compassion or comfort. No different than the feeling of pity we have when someone is lovingly warned to change their evil behavior or suffer the inherent consequences yet they stubbornly refuse to listen.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Scripture indicates He will once again destroy or "baptize" the surface of the earth only this time with fire.

no wonder chrsitians are so afraid of this guy lol

so god is so imperfect and had two chances to create a good people and failed???? and may try to created a third race????
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
No. Read the fine print:
Gen 9:11 Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth."
Scripture indicates He will once again destroy or "baptize" the surface of the earth only this time with fire. (Mat 3:11; 2 Pet 3:7)
but aren't you moving goal posts here?
if it was gods intention that mankind not be evil, for that is why he flooded earth in the 1st place, why not upgrade...to a better version...

And we're not. So it would be supercilious as well as illogical for us to think we know better than someone who is, right?
why did he, less one family, destroy the earth in the first place...
you realize how many innocent children perished..? and why the animals...? here is another thought, does jesus' sacrifice save those people that god murdered? if so, why not have the ultimate sacrifice instead of a flood?



The Hebrew root behind all the words variously translated as "relent," "repent," "be sorry" and "grieve" is "nacham". In its origins the root may well have reflected the idea of breathing, sighing deeply, or pity. It suggests a physical display of one’s feelings--sorrow, compassion or comfort. No different than the feeling of pity we have when someone is lovingly warned to change their evil behavior or suffer the inherent consequences yet they stubbornly refuse to listen.
so are you telling me that at the same time when...
genesis 1:31
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.
he sighed at the same time knowing that evil would come into the world?
:confused:
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
no wonder chrsitians are so afraid of this guy lol

so god is so imperfect and had two chances to create a good people and failed???? and may try to created a third race????

well we're here aren't we...? if he had, we wouldn't be here now would we...:p
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
no wonder chrsitians are so afraid of this guy lol

I'm almost positive the "outhouses" back in Noah's day uttered the same words and laughed their way right into their watery graves.

so god is so imperfect and had two chances to create a good people and failed???? and may try to created a third race????

Not really. Our perfect God created us with the free will to choose between life or death. We chose death. This set off a sequence of events, over a long period of time, which reflects His love, mercy, and patience for mankind to repent.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
but aren't you moving goal posts here? if it was gods intention that mankind not be evil

1. God's intention was to create a physical being with free will to choose God's way or his own way. We chose our way. This set off a chain of natural consequences based on that choice. (Pro 14:12 Pro 16:25).

for that is why he flooded earth in the 1st place, why not upgrade...to a better version...

2. Because our Omniscient God felt there was a better over all alternative. Again, it would be presumptuous ,at best, to think our finite, limited minds know better.

why did he, less one family, destroy the earth in the first place... you realize how many innocent children perished..? and why the animals...? here is another thought, does jesus' sacrifice save those people that god murdered? if so, why not have the ultimate sacrifice instead of a flood?

3. Death is referred to in the bible as "sleep" implying a state of non-permanence and future arousal. And rightfully so because it indicates every man, woman, and child who has ever lived and died from Adam to Christ's return, without accepting Christ, will be resurrected back to physical life, after Christ's 1,000 yr reign, in a pristine physical and spiritual environment for their unhindered shot to accept or reject Him.

so are you telling me that at the same time when... genesis 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.[/I]he sighed at the same time knowing that evil would come into the world?:confused:

4. In Gen 1:31, God was pleased with the created product. He didn't know at the time of the creation of Adam and Eve which way they would choose, but His plan certainly included a set of natural consequences for either choice. Unfortunately, they chose to do things their way-- the way of death. Hence, the sigh at mankind's choice.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
1. God's intention was to create a physical being with free will to choose God's way or his own way. We chose our way. This set off a chain of natural consequences based on that choice. (Pro 14:12 Pro 16:25).
ok...

2. Because our Omniscient God felt there was a better over all alternative. Again, it would be presumptuous ,at best, to think our finite, limited minds know better.
the interesting thing i think you overlook is, we have the book of revelations in which it pans everything out for us...we have a POV of hindsight...if this is understood as a literal story. that is why i am presenting the salvation jesus offers to us now, why wasn't it offered to them then? (i'll give you my reasons for thinking that in my response to #3)

3. Death is referred to in the bible as "sleep" implying a state of non-permanence and future arousal. And rightfully so because it indicates every man, woman, and child who has ever lived and died from Adam to Christ's return, without accepting Christ, will be resurrected back to physical life, after Christ's 1,000 yr reign, in a pristine physical and spiritual environment for their unhindered shot to accept or reject Him.
this still doesn't add up...why didn't god impregnate a virgin instead of a murdering people via the flood..even though he knew is creation would still be totally inclined to commit evil after the flood. it seems as though war, slavery and genocide were actually aligned with gods alternative plan since he was willing to murder all those people in the first place...
my hunch is, the reason "god" (mans idea of god) waited for a few thousand years to sacrifice his only begotten son was because the temple was destroyed for a second time and those who witnessed that very real event had to reconcile that tragedy by moving goal posts...by inventing a new covenant.

4. In Gen 1:31, God was pleased with the created product. He didn't know at the time of the creation of Adam and Eve which way they would choose, but His plan certainly included a set of natural consequences for either choice. Unfortunately, they chose to do things their way-- the way of death. Hence, the sigh at mankind's choice.
yet he knew mankind would continue to be evil? i thought god was omniscient? you mean god wasn't always omniscient?
and if they chose to do things their way, the way of death, why not just let them, instead of killing them? i think the motivation of this story was to instill fear for the purpose of keeping a tribe unified with the tradition of folklore
 
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Tristesse

Well-Known Member
I'm almost positive the "outhouses" back in Noah's day uttered the same words and laughed their way right into their watery graves.



Not really. Our perfect God created us with the free will to choose between life or death. We chose death. This set off a sequence of events, over a long period of time, which reflects His love, mercy, and patience for mankind to repent.

"He" also created us with a mind capable of think and rationalizing, and a being who is supposedly perfectly meciful and perfectly just, is in direct contradiction. Therefore, god is a contradiction. And cannot exist.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
the interesting thing i think you overlook is, we have the book of revelations in which it pans everything out for us...we have a POV of hindsight...

1. Is this a bad thing?

if this is understood as a literal story. that is why i am presenting the salvation jesus offers to us now, why wasn't it offered to them then?

2. Contrary to popular belief, God is not attempting to save mankind in this current age (Mk 4:12). He's only working with a relatively small number of individuals preparing them for government positions under Christ, during His millennial reign on earth (1 Co 6:2-3; Rev 20; 2 Tim 2:12; Rev 20:6). If Christ was offered sooner, there would be more individuals than there are positions.

this still doesn't add up...why didn't god impregnate a virgin instead of a murdering people via the flood..even though he knew is creation would still be totally inclined to commit evil after the flood. it seems as though war, slavery and genocide were actually aligned with gods alternative plan since he was willing to murder all those people in the first place...

3. It may appear as murder, according to the modern definition. But once the pieces of God's plan are put together, its far from it. God created life. He and He alone has the prerogative to take it away. But in His love and compassion, He will afford those ,who could not see the misery their corrupt conduct caused themselves and others, a fair chance to live again and make amends.

my hunch is, the reason "god" (mans idea of god) waited for a few thousand years to sacrifice his only begotten son was because the temple was destroyed for a second time and those who witnessed that event had to reconcile that very real event by moving goal posts...by inventing a new covenant.

4. Only one problem with that "hunch"--the new covenant, which included the Messiah's sacrifice, was prophesied way back in the OT.

and if they chose to do things their way, the way of death, why not just let them, instead of killing them?

5. Why not put them out of their misery sooner rather than later? Especially knowing He had plans to resurrected them at a later time.

i thought god was omniscient? you mean god wasn't always omniscient?

6. The problem is with mankind's definition of omniscience. The Random House Unabridged Dictionary (2006) offers this definition: "having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things." But what does it really mean to have "complete or unlimited knowledge"? Scholars disagree about what it means, but if we let God’s word--as you agreed to do--light our path and guide our steps (Psalm 119:105), we can know the truth of the matter.

Human beings perceive through the senses, but there are limits to what the senses can perceive and understand. But God’s senses are not limited. His Spirit searches all things (1 Co 2:10), and nothing is beyond God’s ability to perceive it. In this sense, He is omniscient. Nothing can escape His gaze and His knowledge. If it can be known, He knows it!

But if we are to use the word omniscient to describe the Father and His glorified Son, it cannot mean they know our every choice before we make it in every circumstance, because Scripture tells us otherwise! For example, the Bible shows that when God gave Abraham the supreme test of sacrificing his son Isaac, He did not know until that moment whether Abraham would choose to obey. Upon perceiving his choice, He told Abraham: "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me" (Genesis 22:12). This was one of the most crucial points in the history of faith and in the plan of God! It was a challenge so intense, and involving such faith, that God did not know the choice Abraham would make.

yet he knew mankind would continue to be evil?

7. We just proved He did not know whether mankind would choose to continue to do evil.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
7. We just proved He did not know whether mankind would choose to continue to do evil.

before we continue...i want to clear something up...
according to you, is the god of the bible omniscient or not? :confused:

you said in a prior post
2. Because our Omniscient God felt there was a better over all alternative.

genesis 8:20,21
Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though[a] every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
ok...


the interesting thing i think you overlook is, we have the book of revelations in which it pans everything out for us...we have a POV of hindsight...if this is understood as a literal story. that is why i am presenting the salvation jesus offers to us now, why wasn't it offered to them then? (i'll give you my reasons for thinking that in my response to #3)


this still doesn't add up...why didn't god impregnate a virgin instead of a murdering people via the flood..even though he knew is creation would still be totally inclined to commit evil after the flood. it seems as though war, slavery and genocide were actually aligned with gods alternative plan since he was willing to murder all those people in the first place...
my hunch is, the reason "god" (mans idea of god) waited for a few thousand years to sacrifice his only begotten son was because the temple was destroyed for a second time and those who witnessed that very real event had to reconcile that tragedy by moving goal posts...by inventing a new covenant.


yet he knew mankind would continue to be evil? i thought god was omniscient? you mean god wasn't always omniscient?
and if they chose to do things their way, the way of death, why not just let them, instead of killing them? i think the motivation of this story was to instill fear for the purpose of keeping a tribe unified with the tradition of folklore
this is the kind of crap that happens when you superimpose NT theology on OT texts -- which is why it's never a good idea to read the Xian idea of salvation into these ancient documents.
 
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