Who's Your Savior?

Katzpur · Oct 10, 2005

Okay, I'm just confused about something. Maybe all of you don't believe you don't need a Savior could explain to me exactly what that means. I'm thinking, first of all, that it would be helpful to me if you would define what you mean by the word "Savior." After you die, what do you believe is going to happen? Anything? Do you, in other words, believe in an afterlife? If you die, who is going to restore life to you? Do you believe you will have the power to take up your life again, without the assistance of a Higher Power? Or do you simply see God as raising you from the dead and judging you on the basis of how you lived your life and, provided you lived a reasonably good one, allowing you into Heaven on the basis of your own merits? I'm not trying to antagonize anyone, but I don't see how anyone can see life as being eternal without a Savior of some sort -- even if it's not Jesus Christ. So would you be so kind as to explain what you mean when you say you don't need a Savior? Thanks.

Watcher · Oct 10, 2005

Saying that I need a savior would suggest that there is seperation between me and "god" which there is not.

Katzpur · Oct 10, 2005

Watcher said:
Saying that I need a savior would suggest that there is seperation between me and "god" which there is not.

If there is no separation between you and God, does that mean you have lived a perfect life or merely that He doesn't care how you've lived?

Do you believe in an afterlife? If you do, do you believe that God will raise you from the dead? Or will you somehow have the power to do this on your own?

Watcher · Oct 10, 2005

I believe that is in everything. God is everything. You are god, and so am I. There is no seperation

Katzpur · Oct 10, 2005

Watcher said:
I believe that is in everything. God is everything. You are god, and so am I. There is no seperation

Okay, so I guess you have power to raise yourself from the dead. Somehow, I don't see myself as being able to do that, but if you can, more power to you. (Actually, if you can do that, you don't need more power, do you?

)

Watcher · Oct 10, 2005

Who said I needed to be raised from the dead??

Jaymes · Oct 10, 2005

Katzpur said:
I'm thinking, first of all, that it would be helpful to me if you would define what you mean by the word "Savior."

Someone that... well, saves you. Since I don't need to be saved from anything, I see no reason to need one.

After you die, what do you believe is going to happen? Anything? Do you, in other words, believe in an afterlife?

I don't believe in an afterlife, per se. I believe that if anything happens, it is not an afterlife, just a continuation of this one. No big switch from living to dead, just continued existence (or nonexistence. Who knows.)

If you die, who is going to restore life to you?

Nobody. You can't bring back the dead.

Do you believe you will have the power to take up your life again, without the assistance of a Higher Power?

Couldn't do it while I was alive, don't see why I could do it as a corpse. I don't think a higher power would see a need to make me alive again, though. Dead is dead, yanno?

Or do you simply see God as raising you from the dead and judging you on the basis of how you lived your life and, provided you lived a reasonably good one, allowing you into Heaven on the basis of your own merits?

If there was a God, I believe it'd go something along those lines. Less judging and more 'here, let's go to the place where everyone's at,' though.

I'm not trying to antagonize anyone, but I don't see how anyone can see life as being eternal without a Savior of some sort -- even if it's not Jesus Christ. So would you be so kind as to explain what you mean when you say you don't need a Savior? Thanks.

If life is eternal, I don't think I'll exactly be conscious for it

Death brings merging with the Tao, I believe. I've always imagined it as more of taking a deep breath, stretching, and curling your toes and being part of everything for all eternity than dying and going to a happy place.

I think that adequately explained it. If not, feel free to pick my brain.

Katzpur · Oct 10, 2005

Watcher said:
Who said I needed to be raised from the dead??

Well, I suppose you plan on dying at some point. What do you believe is going to happen when you die?

Katzpur · Oct 10, 2005

Hi, Jensa.

Actually, I'm more confused now than ever. I guess if you don't believe in an afterlife, though, that about says it all. I guess you are saying that, if there is an afterlife, it would be your spirit that continued to live and your body would simply turn to dust. Would that be a good way of putting it?

Kathryn

Zephyr · Oct 10, 2005

Watcher said:
Who said I needed to be raised from the dead??

I can raise you from the dead. Your title reminds me of The Dark Tower series, so it would be a worthy dead-raising.

Watcher · Oct 10, 2005

I did get it from teh Dark Tower. Love it love it love it

When I die my energy will either decide to manifest itself in another form or I'll let go of my ego and "make the two one"

Jaymes · Oct 10, 2005

Katzpur said:
Actually, I'm more confused now than ever.

Oops, sorry.

I've noticed me talking about what I believe or Taoism tends to do that to people.

I guess if you don't believe in an afterlife, though, that about says it all. I guess you are saying that, if there is an afterlife, it would be your spirit that continued to live and your body would simply turn to dust. Would that be a good way of putting it?

Sorta, kinda, in a way. I don't really believe in a spirit or soul. Just a sort of 'consciousness,' for lack of a better term (not to say that your 'consciousness' leaves you when you go to sleep or go into a coma or--oh, heck, let's just go with spirit with the acknowledgement that I define it as something different). I'd go back into everything after I die. Atoms have a way of getting around (resist urge to add 'if you know what I mean...'); I'd get eaten by bugs, which are eaten by birds, which are eaten by cats and dogs and other bugs and... it never ends.

Katzpur · Oct 10, 2005

Jensa said:
Oops, sorry. I've noticed me talking about what I believe or Taoism tends to do that to people.
Sorta, kinda, in a way. I don't really believe in a spirit or soul. Just a sort of 'consciousness,' for lack of a better term (not to say that your 'consciousness' leaves you when you go to sleep or go into a coma or--oh, heck, let's just go with spirit with the acknowledgement that I define it as something different). I'd go back into everything after I die. Atoms have a way of getting around (resist urge to add 'if you know what I mean...'); I'd get eaten by bugs, which are eaten by birds, which are eaten by cats and dogs and other bugs and... it never ends.

And what happens to your consciousness? Will you be a cognizant entity at all? Or will you essentially just be absorbed into the universe?

Jaymes · Oct 10, 2005

Katzpur said:
And what happens to your consciousness? Will you be a cognizant entity at all? Or will you essentially just be absorbed into the universe?

Personally I think it'd be a bit like being asleep without dreaming. On some level you know you're not dead, but you're not particularly aware of anything, especially the passage of time.

EDIT: So, yea. A bit of A, a bit of B.

Katzpur · Oct 10, 2005

Jensa said:
Personally I think it'd be a bit like being asleep without dreaming. On some level you know you're not dead, but you're not particularly aware of anything, especially the passage of time.

Wow! And this will go on for eternity?

Are these Taoist beliefs, Jensa, or your own personal beliefs or both? (As you can see, I know absolutely nothing about Taoism.)

lilithu · Oct 10, 2005

Katzpur said:
Okay, I'm just confused about something. Maybe all of you don't believe you don't need a Savior could explain to me exactly what that means. I'm thinking, first of all, that it would be helpful to me if you would define what you mean by the word "Savior." After you die, what do you believe is going to happen? Anything? Do you, in other words, believe in an afterlife? If you die, who is going to restore life to you? Do you believe you will have the power to take up your life again, without the assistance of a Higher Power? Or do you simply see God as raising you from the dead and judging you on the basis of how you lived your life and, provided you lived a reasonably good one, allowing you into Heaven on the basis of your own merits? I'm not trying to antagonize anyone, but I don't see how anyone can see life as being eternal without a Savior of some sort -- even if it's not Jesus Christ. So would you be so kind as to explain what you mean when you say you don't need a Savior? Thanks.

Namaste Katzpur,

I do not know whether there is an afterlife and I do not spend much time worrying about it. Actually, if people on RF did not occasionally ask me my views on the afterlife, I don't think that I would think about it at all. I believe that if there is an afterlife, then the things that I need to be doing to attain a good afterlife are the same things that I need to be doing to attain a good this life - that is the caring after my soul by cultivating wisdom and practicing compassion. Those two go hand in hand. I cultivate wisdom to remove the boundaries between me and God. (I agree with Watcher that these boundaries are illusory, due to ignorance.) And I practice compassion towards my fellow humans (and the rest of creation) as an act of love for God. (Wisdom shows me that we are all interconnected.) If I remove the boundaries between me and God/humanity, that is salvation to me. And that is good enough for this life and any possible afterlife.

Katzpur, you must understand that for me, my love for God has nothing to do with desire for ressurection in an afterlife. I love with no guarantees for any possible reward, including continued existence. If I achieve what I wish to achieve (union with God and a just society), that in and of itself is the reward.

Jaymes · Oct 10, 2005

Katzpur said:
Wow! And this will go on for eternity?

I imagine it might be slightly different as worlds are created and destroyed, but otherwise yes. Who knows, maybe at one point my atoms would make up a sperm or seed and I'd become something 'awake' again.

Are these Taoist beliefs, Jensa, or your own personal beliefs or both? (As you can see, I know absolutely nothing about Taoism.)

Taoism really doesn't say much on the subject of death, aside from, I believe, a bit about merging with the Tao. I really, really need to get my copy of the Tao Te Ching back... once I do I'll give you a definate answer. It's either that, or it has no mention of death.

EDIT: So yea, mostly my beliefs.

lilithu · Oct 10, 2005

Jensa said:
Taoism really doesn't say much on the subject of death, aside from, I believe, a bit about merging with the Tao. I really, really need to get my copy of the Tao Te Ching back... once I do I'll give you a definate answer. It's either that, or it has no mention of death.

Hey Jensa, if and when you have the time, could you check out the "common misconceptions about Taoism" thread to see if you have anything to add to it? Thanks, lilith.

Jaymes · Oct 11, 2005

lilithu said:
Hey Jensa, if and when you have the time, could you check out the "common misconceptions about Taoism" thread to see if you have anything to add to it? Thanks, lilith.

I promise, promise promise promise I will as soon as I get my nice translation of the Tao Te Ching back. It has my notes and stuff in it, and I left it at a friend's house. Been driving me nuts for lack of it lately. :bonk: But yea, I'm not ignoring the thread.

TashaN · Oct 11, 2005

Katzpur said:
Okay, I'm just confused about something. Maybe all of you don't believe you don't need a Savior could explain to me exactly what that means. I'm thinking, first of all, that it would be helpful to me if you would define what you mean by the word "Savior."

The word savior means to me that someone supposed to be the sheep which will hold all sins.

Katzpur said:
After you die, what do you believe is going to happen? Anything? Do you, in other words, believe in an afterlife?

Yep.

Katzpur said:
allowing you into Heaven on the basis of your own merits?

I don't gurantee that i'll enter to heaven but i'll pray to God to enter to heaven and to forgive my sins because as you know human beings used to sin.

Katzpur said:
I'm not trying to antagonize anyone, but I don't see how anyone can see life as being eternal without a Savior of some sort --

Personally, i do not believe that life is eternal.

Katzpur said:

even if it's not Jesus Christ. So would you be so kind as to explain what you mean when you say you don't need a Savior? Thanks.

Click to expand...

I mean that no body will save me except myself and my deeds.

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