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Does God exist?

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
...including me. Care to elaborate/define what "roth" is/means/does?
Sure. From my glossary:

Universe, cosmos, and roth:
The cosmos is the simplest: the physical reality explored by modern science. Cosmos is what an atheist would consider to be the universe.


Roth (short O.) is the true reality of God. The 3 elements of roth are arn, rhys, and divine matter. Roth, to my estimation, includes many things that are commonly considered 'supernatural,' but these are simply things we do not yet understand.

The universe is everything. It is entirely possible that the roth is one of many. If that is the case, the other divine beings have/ are their own roth, which are part of the universe.
Rhys:
Rhymes with hiss when whispered. Plural, rhys. If you can say it loudly, you're saying it wrong.
1)The divine consciousness
2)The divine seed of mortal consciousness, not seeming (my rhys; our rhys)

Arn (ahrn):
The life force. Chi, magick, the element which binds rhys to matter to create life. Arn supersaturates the roth, and I believe it's intimately linked to electromagnetism. Sadly, I lack the scientific acumen to pursue that hypothesis



Is that sufficient?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
...I have never cared for people making up their own words...>_>

But yeah I understand.
Well, I got sick of saying "Well, I kinda-sorta-not-really believe in souls, etc."

ETA: If it helps, "roth" is an ancient Gaelic word for "universe."
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Absolutely. It's not a question showing I know the answer, it's a question in general. ;)
Cool.

I believe we are all manifestations of God. From rocks to Elders, and everything in between.

God is a juvenile, and part of growing up is breaking itself apart to explore Godself and learn who and what it is and wants to be.
 

St Giordano Bruno

Well-Known Member
I think the premise that all complex outcomes require some designer it flawed. Some complex outcomes are self organized such as the Mandelbrot set. No need for any designer there, just a simple algorithm.
 

Samurai

Member
Hi all :)

Thank you for your replies.

It seems that many people want to know who created God. Nothing have created God. But God has created everything. Do you understand the difference? The creator must have existed before the creation. Let me give you an example. If a carpenter builds a house. A carpenter must have existed before the house was built. Therefore a creator must have existed before the creation.

God is the first cause of everything. God has created everything in the Universe. God can not be created. Because the first cause of everything can not be created. That would be illogical. The universe had a beginning. Therefore it must have been created. Our universe started with Big Bang (a massive explosion). Through the expansion of the universe, the scientists have understood, that everything must have been one huge mass, that started from one point. If the universe was eternal (had always existed) that means that it would not have been created). But since the universe, had a beginning, that means it has been created (the law of cause and effect). God is the first cause of everything. And as mentioned earlier, the first cause of everything can not be created. Therefore God has not been created.
 
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Samurai

Member
Ahh, but if you say God does exist and there is only one god... there's is nothing in this universe where there exists just one. Nothing is unique. So, if you say to me there are more gods, fine. But just one god, no.

Everything in the universe is interconnected, into oneness. There is unity in the universe and in our planet. This is confirmed by science. Everything is interconnected. Ergo monotheism can be logically explained. Polytheism however, is not true. There is no separation in the universe. There is only unity in the universe.

I recommend the following article about monotheism and polytheism.

Concept of God part 2

MIRACLE OF ISLAM | MIRACLE OF QURAN
 

Vansdad

Member
If we as humans were able to understand the universe's true nature than we may also know that it came into existence. We have to first know it.


^Same logic, just more scientific and is supported by evidence.
This makes no sence to me. Just being a devil's advocate right? What evidence is there that the universe just popped into existence. Where as we are talking about a creator of it, that we are trying to understand how He came into existence. God is a living being (at least that is what we are talking about here) but the universe is not, although it obviously supports life.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Evolutionary processes created not just one religiosity, but at least two, neurologically distinct human religiosities. Out of one of those religiosities is typically born the gods. And I believe the evidence is mounting that I am right about that.

This prophet ain't developing no YTH without a scientific explanation. "Prophet" may yet be shown to be a rare form of schizophrenia bringing on a spontaneous, quantum leap in awareness resulting in the brain's natural defense mechanisms creating Agency as a guide. Go science. :D
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
God does not exist for existence limits god. The LC may exist. I'm quite comfortable with scientific explanations for prophethood when the LC ain't around and objective reality isn't being objectionable. Even if the LC should be found to be "non-standard nature," it is more likely to align with classifications such as "angel," or "helper being from higher plane."

Other than that, what is the real argument here? Are people trying to push a canned theology, that if I'm not mistaken, is still prohibited by scripture? And causal arguments? Gimme a break. Lemme speak like prophet for a minute - to know something of god, look beyond causality. Validated hypothesis. Ten years later, my Gwynnies served me well as god by being beyond my direct causality; and I have a far more mature spirituality - for not aligning to canned, trite, garbage. /rant.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
One day two friends went fishing with a little boat. One of them was an atheist (non-believer) and the other was a believer (he believed in God). As they were fishing they had a conversation with eachother.

The Atheist: Why do you believe in God? We can’t see God. The Universe was created by itself.

The Believer: Let me ask you a question. Is the boat we are sitting in created by itself?

The Atheist: No, off course not. It is a skillful carpenter who has made the boat.

The Believer: So you agree that this boat is not created by itself?

The Atheist: Yes, I agree.

The Believer: When such a little thing as a boat can’t be created by itself, then how can the enormous Universe and our huge planet be created by itself?

The Atheist: I don’t know.

The Believer: Now you know why I believe in God.
You're making quite the logical leap at the end. All you've got so far is an argument (and IMO a rather poor one) for why the universe needs a cause. When you slap the label "God" on that cause, you imply that the cause has all sorts of characteristics... everything that differentiates "God" from all the things that aren't "God". I don't know your specific religious beliefs, but I think it's safe to assume that you've got some mental image of God that's more specific than just "the first cause"; maybe "God" implies something intelligent and personal to you. Maybe it implies a being that came down from Heaven thousands of years ago and wrote instructions for human behaviour on stone tablets. Maybe it implies some being that's going to reward or punish us after we die.

... but there's nothing in the discussion so far that establishes why "God" is an appropriate label for that first cause.

Based on what you've given here, we could drop "Flying Spaghetti Monster" into your dialogue in place of "God" and it would make just as much sense.

Another problem: the analogy you used actually suggests polytheism if anything. No reasonable person would suggest that the existence of all the boats in the world suggests the existence of one single boat-builder. In fact, most boats are built by multiple people all working together.

Many people claim that God doesn’t exist because we can’t see God. You can’t see heat or cold neither, but it does’nt mean that heat and cold don’t exist. You can’t see heat or cold, but you can feel it. You can’t see God, but you can feel God’s presence.
You can? What does God feel like? What is it about this feeling that tells you that it's actually God?

And our senses can be tricked. Yes, heat and cold are real things (which we can confirm by thermometer measurement - is there an instrument we can use to measure "God's presence"?), but our sense of them is sometimes misleading: ask a room full of people if the temperature is too hot or too cold and you'll get disagreement; put your hand into a bucket of ice water and it'll actually feel like burning, not like normal cold.

The feeling of heat when we touch ice water doesn't imply that ice water is hot. Why should we trust your feeling of "God's presence"? How could we go about figuring out whether this sense can be tricked or not?

You can’t see aliens neither, but it doesn’t mean that aliens don’t exist. So even dough you can’t see something, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
OTOH, the fact that you can't see something doesn't necessarily mean that it does exist. Every single non-existent thing hasn't been seen.

And since you can feel God’s presence, this is a sign that God exists.
Again: what does "God's presence" feel like? How do you know it's God?

If God has answered your prayers, that’s another sign that God exists.
That's a big if. Has he?

The creation of the Universe, the sun, the moon, the stars, the planets, the earth, and the nature is a proof that a higher power exists.
No, it's not.

In addition to these things, thelogians, philosophers and scientists has proved that God exists.
No, they haven't.

God has created the Universe, and is the higher power that maintains it. The universe is not created by itself. The Universe is not created by chance. Not even a little pencil can be created by chance. So when not even a pencil can be created by itself, then how can the enormous, harmonious, symmetrical, mathematical and scientific Universe be created by itself? When not even a little pencil can be created by itself, then how can the advanced and complex human body be created by itself? Did you know that the human brain is more than 40 000 times more advanced then the most advanced computer that exists in the world today?
And imagine a being capable of designing such a brain. If the complexity of a pencil or a human being necessitates a creator, then how much more would God need a creator in turn?

Many people claim that the existence of God, is not compatible with science and rationality. If the existence of God is not compatible with science, then why is the existence of God proven by science? If the existence of God is not compatible wih rationality, then why is the existence of God proven by reason?
It's not, and it's not.

If the existence of God is not compatible with science or rationality, then why did some of the greatest scientists and philosophers believe in God? Albert Einstein, Nicolas Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Galileo Galilei, Isaac Newton, Leonardo Davinci, Louis Pasteur and Rene Descartes were scientists who believed in God. Aristoteles, Immanuel Kant, Voltaire, Spinoza, were philosphers who believed in God. Some people claim that Socrates also may have believed in God (from the interpretations of the dialogues of Platon). And guess what, some of the greatest human rights activistists also believed in God. Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and Nelson Mandela were human rights activists who believed in God.
Please stop propping up dead people and using them as your puppets. Especially people like Einstein, who explicitly argued against what you're now claiming he believed.

And it's not like the mere fact that a prominent historical figure had an idea means that this idea is a good one that we should hold today. Newton actually devoted more of his life to alchemy than he did to physics; should we all uphold alchemy as true now?

A couple of years a ago, there was a study in the Usa, were they wanted to find out how religious people and non-believers are when it comes to cleanliness. A study were some academics studied the lifestyles of religious people and non-believers. Do you know what they found out? They want out that does who believed in God, were more concerned with cleanliness than does who didn’t believe in God. Those who believed in God, washed their hands more times each day, than those who didn’t believe in God.
Would you mind providing a link to this study? Or at least enough information about it for us to Google it?

Did you know that people who believe in god, and have connection with religion/spirituality, are those who are most happy. And that religion is linked to a happy life. This is confirmed by a study done by Professor Clark and Dr Orsolya Lelkes. Their findings suggested that religion can offer a protection from life’s dissapointments and that religious people had higher levels of satisfaction.

What we found was that religious people were experiencing current day rewards, rather than storing them up for the future
- Professor Andrew Clark, Paris School of Economics.

Did you know that all psychological problems have a religious/spiritual cause? It is lack of belief/spirituality that makes many people depressed and experience other psychological problems. When someone believes this life is created by chance, and don’t know the meaning of life, he/she might easily get psychological problems.
What a load of bunk.

Mental illness doesn't care about religion. There are plenty of religious AND non-religious people who suffer from it. There are also plenty of religious and non-religious people who don't suffer from it.

Many people who don’t have a belief system based on a religion, get an emptiness in themselves that they fill with alchohol, parties, materialism. They are never content and constantly want more material things, and constantly want to do things that only give them pleasure (not happiness).
You don't actually know any atheists, do you?
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
To the OP. The story about the two guys in the boat is good. The problem with the analogy is that it's a given that there was a "creator" of the boat. They already had confirmed that through past experience. This is not the case when were talking about Deities. Think about this, if those guys believed in Thor, does the analogy prove the existence of Thor?

God is God. All creator gods are God of the creation if their arbitrates are the same. Thor, Allah, the Hebrew God, names are not important. Religions just assign those attributes to their God, and all religions are created by man, so none are perfect. Only God is perfect, and only God is God, ie "I am who I am ".

This childish explanation has been given and debunked many times. Please search for those threads.

Its not as childish as you might wish. Myself I subscribe to the KCA cosmological argument as proposed by Craig* and Koon both PhD Thd enabled modern theists. Member Samuri's analogy was good, it was not meant to be taken literally! That said its far more logical to beleive an intelligent creator exists to beleive the universe came from nothing ie Ex Nihilo, Nihil Fit. Science is now grasping at straws with atheist wonder-boys like Hawking abandoning the classical big bang theory (hot model) after its theological implications became clear. Hawking instead came up with a 'new" theory that I feel was a mismash of older theories with his own imaginary numbers and all sort of mathematical fabrications thrown in. The result is an idea that does not meet the scientific method they nearly worship. Damn logical positivism, lol ! ~

* http://www.reasonablefaith.org/in-defense-of-the-kalam-cosmological-argument

God bless all the earths creatures....even the atheists....lol just poking a little good nature fun at my beloved atheist brothers and sisters ~

~ MrMrdevincamus ~
 
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MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
And that, right there, is the flaw in your argument.

Wrong - oh! Perhaps if before time zero T-0 * something material existed you may and I stress may have an argument. However even time was created in the big bang according to most science gurus. Time is not applicable to an immaterial being, just as time does not effect a thought. So the phrase from nothing nothing comes only applies to the material world as per philosophy 101.

* (ie T-0 is when the BB banged)

ps sorry for all the edits! But that 'Time is not applicable to an immaterial being' also rules out it "being turtles all the way down", lol owed to infinite regression.......
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
The Atheist: Why do you believe in God? We can’t see God. The Universe was created by itself.

The Believer: Let me ask you a question. Is the boat we are sitting in created by itself?

The Atheist: No, off course not. It is a skillful carpenter who has made the boat.

The Believer: So you agree that this boat is not created by itself?

The Atheist: Yes, I agree.

The Believer: When such a little thing as a boat can’t be created by itself, then how can the enormous Universe and our huge planet be created by itself?

The Atheist: I don’t know.

The Believer: Now you know why I believe in God.


What if these two were sitting on a mountain peak instead of a boat? A mountain creates itself.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
What if these two were sitting on a mountain peak instead of a boat? A mountain creates itself.
What if the two guys were falling through the clouds, on a planet?

Planets coalesce themselves out of the accretion disks of early solar systems. Clouds create themselves out of moisture, atmospheric pressure, and heat exchange.
 
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