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The Witch of Endor

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
1 Samuel 28
Saul and the Witch of Endor
1 In those days the Philistines gathered their forces to fight against Israel. Achish said to David, "You must understand that you and your men will accompany me in the army."

2 David said, "Then you will see for yourself what your servant can do."
Achish replied, "Very well, I will make you my bodyguard for life."

3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all the Israelites and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her."
"There is one in Endor," they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"

10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."

11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."

14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

For those who believe in a literal reading of the Bible, does this story prove that it is possible for a human to conjure up the spirits of the dead?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
For those who believe in a literal reading of the Bible, does this story prove that it is possible for a human to conjure up the spirits of the dead?


I would not say that I do believe in a literal reading of the Old testament; however, It would certainly seem as if it is possible for a human to conjure upm spirits, although in this particular case, it sounds as if the witch was a bit of a fraud, and was shocked when the 'summoning' actually worked.
The defender's notes are in green, and certainly seem to 'go along' with the story, at face value..



28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.



Communication with spirits is evidently as old as history, but has been strictly forbidden by God (Deuteronomy 18:9-14). The entities called forth by spirit mediums (a process called "channeling" in the New Age movement) are not the spirits of deceased human beings, as often claimed, but are evil spirits, or demons, under the direction of Satan. When a spirit controls the body of a medium, essentially the body is demon possessed. Any "guidance" from such a source will inevitably be deceptive and dangerous, leading the one so deceived still further from the Lord.

28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.


The "witch of En-dor" (1 Samuel 28:7) undoubtedly expected to call up her own "familiar spirit," who could feign a message from Samuel. God, however, actually allowed Samuel's own spirit to return to deliver one final message of condemnation to rebellious Saul. This is why the woman screamed out in shock and fear; her channeling had never before communicated with the departed spirits of real humans.
:)
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
I agree with Michel... but would like to clarify one thing: it seems possible for a human to do such a thing, but not of their own power. I would have to say "you-know-who" with the horns and pitchfork had a role in something like this.:D
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Scott1 said:
I agree with Michel... but would like to clarify one thing: it seems possible for a human to do such a thing, but not of their own power. I would have to say "you-know-who" with the horns and pitchfork had a role in something like this.:D
"you-know-who" is not mentioned in the text either. ;) The text says the woman brought up Samuel.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Scott1 said:
I agree with Michel... but would like to clarify one thing: it seems possible for a human to do such a thing, but not of their own power. I would have to say "you-know-who" with the horns and pitchfork had a role in something like this.:D
I know that this subject is pretty much Taboo in Christianity (and that is reflected in one of the verses) ; I would though like to hear your thoughts on when spiritual people allow their hands to be used to heal others... Surely the Church would not condemn such an act ?
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Maize said:
"you-know-who" is not mentioned in the text either. ;) The text says the woman brought up Samuel.
I guess we are reading different texts.:D

6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him ...

8 "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

A spirit that is not of the Lord?------------> The evil one.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
michel said:
I know that this subject is pretty much Taboo in Christianity (and that is reflected in one of the verses) ; I would though like to hear your thoughts on when spiritual people allow their hands to be used to heal others... Surely the Church would not condemn such an act ?
Taboo? Healings are performed every day in the Church around the world.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Scott1 said:
I guess we are reading different texts.:D

6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him ...

8 "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

A spirit that is not of the Lord?------------> The evil one.
So the woman is "you-know-who"? Why doesn't it just say that in the story? And what is the literal Bible reader to believe? The story says the woman brought up Samuel, not the devil or God.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Endor? Isn't that the planet of the Ewoks? ;)

If we look at the text literally, i'd say it must be a certain yes to Maize's question. I'd also suggest that since the text says God had abandoned Saul, it is unlikely God rose the spirit for him.

Also, if we again take the bible literally, it was unlikely to be satan as satan doesn't exist in the bible outside of the God appointed role as adversary. Since the satan is an 'employee' of God, and as stated before God had abandoned Saul, it is unlikely God would have ordered the satan to raise the spirit.

Therefore, we can only assume either the woman raised the spirit, or the spirit came up of its own accord.

Other evidence in the bible sees God ordering the killing of witches, sorcerers, necromancers etc... i.e. those most likely to deal with spirit communication. This suggests that God acknowledges the possibility of magick and raising the dead, he just doesn't like it.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Maize said:
So the woman is "you-know-who"? Why doesn't it just say that in the story? And what is the literal Bible reader to believe? The story says the woman brought up Samuel, not the devil or God.
No,... the woman consulted the "spirit" in verse 8.... the woman did it, but not of her own power... she used the power of this evil spirit to do so.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Scott1 said:
No,... the woman consulted the "spirit" in verse 8.... the woman did it, but not of her own power... she used the power of this evil spirit to do so.

The spirit of Samuel. It was still through the woman that this took place. She instigated the event, therefore proving that humans have the ability to speak/control/call up spirits of the dead. That is, if you take the story literally. ;)
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Leviticus 19:26
You shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall you use enchantment, nor observe times (foretell the future).

Leviticus 19:31
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:6
And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11
There shall not be found among you anyone that...useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.(KJV)

There would be no reason to command people against witchcraft, enchantment, foretune-telling, conjuring spirits, etc, unless the writer(s) of the bible believed these things were possible.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Maize said:

The spirit of Samuel. It was still through the woman that this took place. She instigated the event, therefore proving that humans have the ability to speak/control/call up spirits of the dead. That is, if you take the story literally. ;)
Either that or its proof that spirits can speak/control/use human beings of their own free will. There's no way to know which way round it happened, is there?
 

fromthe heart

Well-Known Member
Personally conjuring up spirits is a part of the work of the devil...people can dwelve into the spirit world but in doing so they risk their soul in the process. It's not wise to try to meddle in the occult world...it is easy to get caught up in all that and next thing you know you are risking your very own soul because it is forbidden in the Bible to dwell in this sort of darkness. God's people walk in the spirit of truth and light and don't involve themselves in the side of darkness. So given how I view this I would say she had to have the help of Satan given the outcome.:)
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
fromthe heart said:
So given how I view this I would say she had to have the help of Satan given the outcome.:)
I understand your view, but if we are to read the Bible literally, the story says nothing of Satan himself helping her.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Scott1 said:
Taboo? Healings are performed every day in the Church around the world.
I thought that maybe the 'chanelling' of whatever energy is used to heal would be 'parallel' to whichcraft (as in what some people call white witches)..........I get confused easily with what is 'O.K' and what isn't .................; I do healing (or at least used to, much more than now - because I am often in pain and simply haven't the energy to help others) - and I always made sure to tell those I helped that the healing came from God, not me.
 

Radar

Active Member
lilithu said:
Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Leviticus 19:26
You shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall you use enchantment, nor observe times (foretell the future).

Leviticus 19:31
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:6
And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11
There shall not be found among you anyone that...useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.(KJV)

There would be no reason to command people against witchcraft, enchantment, foretune-telling, conjuring spirits, etc, unless the writer(s) of the bible believed these things were possible.
Good post:clap
 

fromthe heart

Well-Known Member
Maize said:
I understand your view, but if we are to read the Bible literally, the story says nothing of Satan himself helping her.
Quite true Maize but those who understand the scriptures know these things are forbidden to do and IS associated with dwelling in the dark side and thus Satan involved. There are MANY scriptures as which lilithu has given and many more that tell us wrong from right and associate these sorts of things with evil thus the devil.:)

Healings such as Michel spoke about come from the hand of God...There are those who are given gifts and some of these gifts are of healing...but it's done in God's name for His purpose and for His edification....spirits being called up serves who???
 
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