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Abraham had 8 sons but not "only one" !!!

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is "supposed to be" obvious that Abaraham sacrificed his only son according to what the bible says.

"By faith Abraham when he was tried, offered up Isaac, ... his only begotten son." Heb.11:17

"Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, ... and offer him there for a burnt offering." Gen.22:2

BUT

"And Hagar bare Abraham a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael." Gen.16:15

"For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son is his old age .... And Abraham called him Isaac." Gen.21:2-3

"Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. Gen.25:1-2

"Abraham had two sons; the one by a bond-woman, and the other by a free woman." Gal.4:22

As a matter of fact i believe in this statment >>> Let The Bible Speak.

It follows from the underlined portion that Abraham (sws) was asked to sacrifice his only son which means that at that time he had no other son. The fact that this could only be Ishmael (sws) is evident from the following two passages of the Bible:
Abraham was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael. (Genesis, 16:16)

Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him. (Genesis, 21:5)

"Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, ‘Abraham!’ ‘Here I am,’ he replied. Then God said, ‘Take your son, your only son, Isaac, .......
Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.’ Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, ‘On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided.’ The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, ‘I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."
(Genesis 22:1-18)
It follows from the underlined portion that Abraham was asked to sacrifice his only son which means that at that time he had no other son. The fact that this could only be Ishmael is evident from the following two passages of the Bible:

Abraham was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael. (Genesis, 16:16)

Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him. (Genesis, 21:5)

It is evident from these verses that Ishmael was fourteen years old at the birth of Isaac, and must have been offered for sacrifice before Isaac was born because Abraham had been asked to sacrifice his only son; after Isaac’s birth of course the words ‘your only son’ would be totally inappropriate and against reality.

In the light of this evidence, it is obvious that the word Isaac mentioned in the passage above (indicated by the underlined portion) was inserted in place of Ishmael.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Nope. It meant Isaac was the only son of promise. It was Isaac who would continue the patriarchal order of his father, not Ishmeal who was the child "born after the flesh" (Gal. 4:23).
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
by the time of the binding of Isaac, Ishmael had already been sent away on his own, so at this point the ONLY son Abraham had living with him was Isaac.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
jewscout said:
by the time of the binding of Isaac, Ishmael had already been sent away on his own, so at this point the ONLY son Abraham had living with him was Isaac.
Do you have any proof that Ishmael have sent away and that the scripture means the only AVILABLE son?
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
Do you have any proof that Ishmael have sent away and that the scripture means the only AVILABLE son?
"For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son is his old age .... And Abraham called him Isaac." Gen.21:2-3

Cool, so Isaac is born... let's look a whole 6 verses further. Okay, Sarah is jealous and sends him away only 6 verses later. Have you ever read the full Parshas Vayeia? If you're going to ask questions it's one thing, but the way you set up this thread is picking and choosing verses without even reading the full chapter. In the future, it is suggested that one who is trying to prove something should be familiar with the context. :)

21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

Okay, so NOW Abraham goes up to sacrifice his only son since Ishmael is gone as you cited in (Genesis 22:1-18). Now, the other children of Abraham come 3 chapters later as you already cited...

"Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. Gen.25:1-2

Cool, so now that we're reading the full Parsha we can go back to what you said so eloquently:
As a matter of fact i believe in this statment >>> Let The Bible Speak.

Yes, let's let the bible speak, but lets also read the full Parsha and not pick and choose verses without reading the facts that completely disprove your thesis. :)
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Binyamin said:
"For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son is his old age .... And Abraham called him Isaac." Gen.21:2-3

Cool, so Isaac is born... let's look a whole 6 verses further. Okay, Sarah is jealous and sends him away only 6 verses later. Have you ever read the full Parshas Vayeia? If you're going to ask questions it's one thing, but the way you set up this thread is picking and choosing verses without even reading the full chapter. In the future, it is suggested that one who is trying to prove something should be familiar with the context. :)

21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

Okay, so NOW Abraham goes up to sacrifice his only son since Ishmael is gone as you cited in (Genesis 22:1-18). Now, the other children of Abraham come 3 chapters later as you already cited...

"Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. Gen.25:1-2

Cool, so now that we're reading the full Parsha we can go back to what you said so eloquently:
[/b]
Yes, let's let the bible speak, but lets also read the full Parsha and not pick and choose verses without reading the facts that completely disprove your thesis. :)
I would'nt worry too much about a come back, Binyamin; The Truth is using old arguments from this site http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/heb/11.html#17 :D
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Binyamin said:
Yes, let's let the bible speak, but lets also read the full Parsha and not pick and choose verses without reading the facts that completely disprove your thesis. :)
I know excatly how to deal with holy books and i'll be annoying if i picked up whatever i found there because i met people who was doing so with Quran and their answer was in the verse before.

So, Don't worry because my point wasn't about Isaac and Ishmael only because i read the whole chapter of course but as you can see in the title of the thread i was focusing in the word "only one".
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Binyamin said:
I realize that, I even used their translated verses which is why I find it hilarious, you have any more arguments you want explained truth?
I think you didn't reach yet to my point.

O.K. i wanted to ask why in the bible we read it as "only" and they didn't say simply he went with his son Isaac and everybody will knows that the verse means Isaac but not ishmael because according to the bible he wasn't there.

for example if i have two sons and one of them wasn't around so my wife supposed to say:
Go with your "only" son or she will just say simply go with your son?

The second thing is: Why in hebrews 11 we read "the only begotten son"? was the others not begotten as Isaac?

Finally, thanks for sharing your thoughts and knowlege with me.:eek:
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
I think you didn't reach yet to my point.
Maybe because I find this a stupid argument... I still don't think you've read the entire Parsha...

The Truth said:
O.K. i wanted to ask why in the bible we read it as "only" and they didn't say simply he went with his son Isaac and everybody will knows that the verse means Isaac but not ishmael because according to the bible he wasn't there.
Did you read the full chapter yet?

21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
21:15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. 21:16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bow shot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.

As far as Abraham was concerned, they were dead from what his wife Sarai punished them with. Even if they were not dead, as far as he was concerned, Ishmael was no longer his son.



The Truth said:
for example if i have two sons and one of them wasn't around so my wife supposed to say:
Go with your "only" son or she will just say simply go with your son?
Well, I'm going with my only son (that's present with me) is one interpretation, although I don't really agree with it. As far as Abraham was concerned this was his only fathered son with Sarai as well as his only son alive. This is the son that is/was suppose to lead the nations.

The Truth said:
The second thing is: Why in hebrews 11 we read "the only begotten son"? was the others not begotten as Isaac?
As far as Abraham was concerned, Ishmael was dead to him.

The Truth said:
Finally, thanks for sharing your thoughts and knowlege with me.:eek:
Yea... sure...
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
I know excatly how to deal with holy books and i'll be annoying if i picked up whatever i found there because i met people who was doing so with Quran and their answer was in the verse before.

So, Don't worry because my point wasn't about Isaac and Ishmael only because i read the whole chapter of course but as you can see in the title of the thread i was focusing in the word "only one".
No your thread title indicates that he had 8 at the time of the sacrifice, but that's okay, you believe what you want, have you read the full Parsha yet?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Binyamin said:
Maybe because I find this a stupid argument..
Thank you :)

Binyamin said:
As far as Abraham was concerned, they were dead from what his wife Sarai punished them with. Even if they were not dead, as far as he was concerned, Ishmael was no longer his son.
1- Why Sarah wanted to punish her while she was the one who gave it to Abraham from thebegining?

2- Why Ishmael was no longer his son? because Sarah said so or because God according to the bible confirmed what Sarah wanted?

3- Is there any proof that Ishmael died?

Binyamin said:
Well, I'm going with my only son (that's present with me) is one interpretation, although I don't really agree with it. As far as Abraham was concerned this was his only fathered son with Sarai as well as his only son alive. This is the son that is/was suppose to lead the nations.
I wasn't talking about leading the nation or not because we will talk about this later on if you want but now what the verse wanted to proof when it says "ONLY"? that Ishmael wasn't a real son from the begining?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Binyamin said:
No your thread title indicates that he had 8 at the time of the sacrifice, but that's okay, you believe what you want, have you read the full Parsha yet?
Don't worry, i did long time a go and i did again.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
Thank you :)
Anytime.

The Truth said:
1- Why Sarah wanted to punish her while she was the one who gave it to Abraham from thebegining?
I already said that.
21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
The Hebrew word used can mean mocking, playing, or making sport. This term expresses what Sarah saw that convinced her that Ishmael could not remain in the household. Scripture uses this verb to denote the three cardinal sins; idolitry (Exodus 32:6], adultery [Exodus 39:17], and murder [II Samual 2:14]. Thus Ishmael's behavior proved that he had become throughly corrupt and evil, and he had to be sent away.

The Truth said:
2- Why Ishmael was no longer his son?
He was still his son, but G-d is telling him to take his only son (which he loves). He no longer

The Truth said:
because Sarah said so or because God according to the bible confirmed what Sarah wanted?
This is what Hashem said as per the Mishnah and Gemorah...
Hashem said: "Take your son."
Abraham said: "But I have two sons, which should I take."
Hashem said: Your only one!
Abraham said: "But each of them is the only son of his mother."
Hashem said: "Whom you love!"

Understand now?

The Truth said:
3- Is there any proof that Ishmael died?
I never said he WAS dead, I said he was dead to Abraham. (In the sense of love, Hashem tells him to take his only son, well each is the only one to the mother, then He, Hashem, tells him basically the one with the wife you love. It's not that hard of a concept to understand.

The Truth said:
I wasn't talking about leading the nation or not because we will talk about this later on if you want but now what the verse wanted to proof when it says "ONLY"? that Ishmael wasn't a real son from the begining?
Understand yet? It's really not that difficult to understand...
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Binyamin said:
Anytime.

I already said that.
21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
The Hebrew word used can mean mocking, playing, or making sport. This term expresses what Sarah saw that convinced her that Ishmael could not remain in the household. Scripture uses this verb to denote the three cardinal sins; idolitry (Exodus 32:6], adultery [Exodus 39:17], and murder [II Samual 2:14]. Thus Ishmael's behavior proved that he had become throughly corrupt and evil, and he had to be sent away.
So, You assumed now that Ishmael the son of Abraham have been corupted and Evil? This is a new information to me actually and i don't believe in it because i read an article by a christian scholar and he was claiming that unknown writers may added some verses to the scripture which is not the same as the original one and i claim this one may one of it.

Binyamin said:
He was still his son, but G-d is telling him to take his only son (which he loves). He no longer
If there was such a thing like (which he love) there in the scripture i wasn't about to argue but you seem so sure from what you are saying 100% and ignoring what other may think of and understand which is totally wrong.

Binyamin said:
This is what Hashem said as per the Mishnah and Gemorah...
Hashem said: "Take your son."
Abraham said: "But I have two sons, which should I take."
Hashem said: Your only one!
Abraham said: "But each of them is the only son of his mother."
Hashem said: "Whom you love!"

Understand now?
I don't know this scripture you used :sarcastic

Binyamin said:
I never said he WAS dead, I said he was dead to Abraham. (In the sense of love, Hashem tells him to take his only son, well each is the only one to the mother, then He, Hashem, tells him basically the one with the wife you love. It's not that hard of a concept to understand.

Understand yet? It's really not that difficult to understand...
I think you have a big problem in understanding that your PERSONAL information must NOT be accurate 100% and you have to concider what other people may think of.
you are assuming that he was dead to Abraham which is WRONG assuming because even though we assumed that he sent Ishmael and his MOm somewhere so that dosn't prove that he dosn't love him.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
So, You assumed now that Ishmael the son of Abraham have been corupted and Evil? This is a new information to me actually and i don't believe in it because i read an article by a christian scholar and he was claiming that unknown writers may added some verses to the scripture which is not the same as the original one and i claim this one may one of it.
Christian's ignore the entire Oral traidtion. You asked about a Jewish text question you got your answer. Why don't you read the Mishnah? Ever even heard of it? You do realize it was given by MOSES, the same MOSES who gave you the Torah?

The Truth said:
If there was such a thing like (which he love) there in the scripture i wasn't about to argue but you seem so sure from what you are saying 100% and ignoring what other may think of and understand which is totally wrong.
Well, if I'm not sure I check the Mishnah, Gemorah, what Rashi, Ramban, and the other sages have to say. So far though, I've yet to really glance at it.

The Truth said:
I don't know this scripture you used :sarcastic
Of course you wouldn't, if you knew the Mishnah and Gemora, I doubt you would still believe in Jesus. The Mishnah is the oral law that Moses gave w/ the written law. Jews believe the oral law and the written law go hand in hand. You can't understand one w/out the other. For example, Moses commands us to do a kosher slaughter... No where in the torah does it say what a Kosher slaughter is... The Mishnah goes into in detail.

The Truth said:
I think you have a big problem in understanding that your PERSONAL information must NOT be accurate 100% and you have to concider what other people may think of.
Who gave YOU the authority to pick and choose what Moses said?

The Truth said:
you are assuming that he was dead to Abraham which is WRONG assuming because even though we assumed that he sent Ishmael and his MOm somewhere so that dosn't prove that he dosn't love him.
I'm assuming nothing. Why don't you educate yourself on what the Mishnah is before you accuse me of making something up that was given by moses. Here's a good start, look up this term... Halacha LeMoshe MiSinai
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Binyamin said:
Christian's ignore the entire Oral traidtion. You asked about a Jewish text question you got your answer. Why don't you read the Mishnah? Ever even heard of it? You do realize it was given by MOSES, the same MOSES who gave you the Torah?

I'm assuming nothing. Why don't you educate yourself on what the Mishnah is before you accuse me of making something up that was given by moses. Here's a good start, look up this term... Halacha LeMoshe MiSinai
I don't care of these sciptures because Moses had ONLY the Torah and i never heard of such a thing as these books you just mentioned. You have to know that God sent Jesus to guide the Jewish after they changed what Moses (PBUH) gave them which is Torah but they rejected thier Massiah.

By the way, Moses to me is a prophet the same as Moahmmed and you wrong if you think i may change his words.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
I don't care of these sciptures because Moses had ONLY the Torah and i never heard of such a thing as these books you just mentioned. You have to know that God sent Jesus to guide the Jewish after they changed what Moses (PBUH) gave them which is Torah but they rejected thier Massiah.

By the way, Moses to me is a prophet the same as Moahmmed and you wrong if you think i may change his words.
I don't think I've ever laughed so hard in my life. :bounce

Let me summarize your argument:
"I've never learned about that or heard of it, so it can't be true. Let me ignore the fact that the same person who gave YOU the torah is the same person who gave the Oral law." - Fine, you're uneducated, that's all you need to say.

You never heard of it because there are aspects of it that contradict the idea of son of Hashem.

Just for laughs, what does this mean to you: zachor at yom ha-shabat le-kadsho. It translates to: Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

Keep in mind Jews who didn't remember the Sabbath and keep it holy would be killed. This was given to them with the Torah. You do accept this commandment from G-d, correct... Remember this is punishable by death... zachor at yom ha-shabat le-kadsho.

Let's see who changed what laws... This commandment from G-d was punishable by death, where in the Torah does it explain what you can and can't do on this day? Also, where in the Torah does it say not to go around killing people who ignore the Sabbath. Or even better, where in the torah does it tell you NOT to stone homosexuals? Just because you're to ignorant to know about it doesn't mean it's not true. But yea, keep on believing in your dribble, as long as you're happy, I'm happy. You have your thing, we have ours.
 
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