would it be fair to say; the 3 abrahamic religions...

waitasec said:

i don't think so, nice try though
the default position is that we are all the same. believing there is no god is supporting that position...
at least that's how i see it.

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Well, I see it differently. There is no evidence for God, that's true, but there isn't any evidence that there isn't a God either. And believe it or not, people of faith are not the only ones who can believe themselves superior, atheists and agnostics can do it, too.

People are people, whether they follow faith or not. That is one of my and Kathryn's argument (sorry for speaking for you, if that is not true, Kathryn).

ChristineES said:

Well, I see it differently. There is no evidence for God, that's true, but there isn't any evidence that there isn't a God either. And believe it or not, people of faith are not the only ones who can believe themselves superior, atheists and agnostics can do it, too.

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but you are sidestepping the point i am making...
the false pretense is that you are separated by faith...
and what is the purpose of faith?

People are people, whether they follow faith or not. That is one of my and Kathryn's argument (sorry for speaking for you, if that is not true, Kathryn).

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not when people make statements that says they are better, chosen, blessed, or holy when comparing themselves with unbelievers...
like i said religion has had a tendency of controlling peoples personal freedoms because the religious (in a lot of cases as you can see through out history) think they are appointed to represent their god...can you see that?

Vendetta said:

Kindly tell me other two?

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I just did!

If you include Bahai, I still think its [sic] heterodoxical form of Islam.

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Then you are wrong.

The Baha'i Faith is no more Islam than Christianity is Judaism!

Further we have OUR OWN teachings, laws, procedures, and calendar, as well as fully 200 volumes of our own, Baha'i scripture!

Further, Islamic courts themselves have ruled that the Baha'i Faith is NOT Islamic!

So there is no greater mistake than to call us part of Islam.

Peace,

Bruce

Regardless, you can't merely say "the three Abrahamic religions" and be correct, as I pointed out.

And merely calling it "a form of Islam" neither does it justice nor provides its founders and adherents the credit they deserve!

Peace,

Bruce

BruceDLimber said:

Regardless, you can't merely say "the three Abrahamic religions" and be correct, as I pointed out.

And merely calling it "a form of Islam" neither does it justice nor provides its founders and adherents the credit they deserve!

Peace,

Bruce

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sorry bruce but you didn't point anything worth while in regards the premise of the OP...

Wait said:

nevertheless it is your ability to recognize something us non theists do not, thereby segregating you to a level of superiority under false pretenses

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I don't believe my ability to recognize is something extraordinary, therefore make no claim of superiority

Besides which, if recognition is a claim of superiority over those who do not recognize, then all religious claims, whether for or against, so segregate people. Moreover, all claims of recognition of ANY kind would be claims of superiority. I do not accept this proposition.

the default position is that we are all the same

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And Christianity supports that...

Iam not sure that i understand the initial question.

waitasec said:

i don't mean to be a boff...
no. i don't get what you mean.
if one has a relationship with the supreme being, that doesn't change ones outlook of the world? i mean, i've been lucky enough to get to stand on stages while high profile bands are performing and embarrassingly enough, i feel pretty cool because of my association with a certain someone who affords me these fun perks, how much more can ones association with a supreme being affect a persons opinion of the unbelieving world?

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For me, it's so over the top that it's absolutely humbling. I know I've done NOTHING to warrant such grace.

Let me ask the atheists this question:

You have chosen not to believe in any diety or Supreme Being. You've made this choice because you believe you have researched this intelligently and this is the most logical conclusion to your research - am I correct so far?

If that's the case, do you feel that theists are mistaken? When you debate this issue with them, do you feel that they are missing critical information based on a variety of causes - preconceived notions, prejudices, biases, lack of intelligence, lack of exposure to logic and/or information, whatever? In other words, do you believe that you are right and they are wrong? If not - are you truly an atheist, or are you simply agnostic?

If you are truly an atheist, then you believe that theists are mistaken - that for some reason, their beliefs are wrong. You are right and they are wrong.

Is this a segregating mindset? Does this mean that your information, and therefore your opinion, is superior? Do you separate people in your mind - atheists and theists - and do you make assumptions based on those separations?

waitasec said:

but you are sidestepping the point i am making...
the false pretense is that you are separated by faith...
and what is the purpose of faith?



not when people make statements that says they are better, chosen, blessed, or holy when comparing themselves with unbelievers...
like i said religion has had a tendency of controlling peoples personal freedoms because the religious (in a lot of cases as you can see through out history) think they are appointed to represent their god...can you see that?

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Atheists believe that they have "the correct" information - that their belief that there is no Supreme Being is correct and that others' beliefs in a Supreme Being are therefore incorrect. This implies a belief that they have (and is often stated that it is a result of) superior reasoning powers or intellect.

There have been enough abusive atheist regimes in history to prove that the lack of a belief in a Supreme Being does not mean that the propensity to want to control others dissipates.

waitasec said:

nevertheless it is your ability to recognize something us non theists do not, thereby segregating you to a level of superiority under false pretenses

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Perfectly illustrates my point. Atheists believec it is their ABILITY to recognize something that theists do not - thereby segregating them to a level of superiority - which theists would say was based on false pretenses.

You do know, don't you, that this argument is un-winnable by either side, right?

Kathryn said:

Perfectly illustrates my point. Atheists believec it is their ABILITY to recognize something that theists do not - thereby segregating them to a level of superiority - which theists would say was based on false pretenses.

You do know, don't you, that this argument is un-winnable by either side, right?

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the default is that everyone is equal... atheism supports that notion...
so the false pretense would be that religious faith segregates people from people...

Kathryn said:

Atheists believe that they have "the correct" information - that their belief that there is no Supreme Being is correct and that others' beliefs in a Supreme Being are therefore incorrect. This implies a belief that they have (and is often stated that it is a result of) superior reasoning powers or intellect.

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let me ask you this,
has the atheistic belief ever been a part of a system that infringes on your personal rights?

There have been enough abusive atheist regimes in history to prove that the lack of a belief in a Supreme Being does not mean that the propensity to want to control others dissipates.

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so you are admitting religion is no worse than than atheistic regimes...funny, i would think the bar would be raised when it comes to religion...

Kathryn said:

Let me ask the atheists this question:

You have chosen not to believe in any diety or Supreme Being. You've made this choice because you believe you have researched this intelligently and this is the most logical conclusion to your research - am I correct so far?

If that's the case, do you feel that theists are mistaken? When you debate this issue with them, do you feel that they are missing critical information based on a variety of causes - preconceived notions, prejudices, biases, lack of intelligence, lack of exposure to logic and/or information, whatever? In other words, do you believe that you are right and they are wrong? If not - are you truly an atheist, or are you simply agnostic?

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i believe they are when they approach me and tell me i am mistaken.
i don't walk up to any one and tell them they are mistaken for believing what they do...
to each his own...what ever floats YOUR boat...just don't walk up to me and say i need to be saved because jesus is for everyone...

If you are truly an atheist, then you believe that theists are mistaken - that for some reason, their beliefs are wrong. You are right and they are wrong.

Is this a segregating mindset? Does this mean that your information, and therefore your opinion, is superior? Do you separate people in your mind - atheists and theists - and do you make assumptions based on those separations?

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actually i don't care what your PERSONAL beliefs are...when i care is when
my personal rights are being infringed...for the purpose of your beliefs by controlling those who do not
believe as you do.

the purpose of saying 'under false pretenses' is because i want to know what give religious belief the right to tell me as a person who doesn't adhere to a particular religious doctrine
who i can marry, if i can adopt, that i can't use birth control and what should be taught in schools...
those are the facts and i know you don't like it...

waitasec said:

let me ask you this,


...

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has the atheistic belief ever been a part of a system that infringes on your personal rights?

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Nope, but that's because I'm luckier than many people (for instance, this woman) because I happened to be born in the United States - a country with a long tradition of respect toward a wide variety of faith expressions:



Nien Cheng - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Wikipedia article doesn't go into much detail of her life, and doesn't even mention that one thing that got her in hot water with the Communist regime under Mao Tse Tung was that she and her husband were actively and openly Christian - which was basically against the law under Mao Tse Tung. I know this because I read and recommend her excellent book "Life and Death in Shanghai" to anyone who doesn't believe that atheist regimes have a history of persecuting people of faith.

so you are admitting religion is no worse than than atheistic regimes...funny, i would think the bar would be raised when it comes to religion...

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I am "admitting that religion is no worse than atheistic regimes?" There you go again, with your constant (and slightly irritating) habit of rephrasing and twisting words and then trying to cram them into the mouths of others.

What I am saying is that human nature is human nature -and that atheists have no more reason to feel superior than anyone else does - though some do, just as some religious people do. Some of both persuasions, and everything in between, actually resort to violence and abuse based in their idea that their views are superior.

Pesky thing, this human nature - always getting in the way of ideals and preconceived notions...

so these scriptures say what then?


For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
ephesians 2:10

my favorite..
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light
ephesians 5:8


who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
titus 2:14

here's the zinger...
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

1 Peter 2:9

do you believe what scripture tells you or not...?

waitasec said:

do you believe what scripture tells you or not...?

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For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
ephesians 2:10

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Yes, I believe that all mankind is created in God's image and that God gave each of us unique talents and a purpose. ALL of us.

By the way, you left off the verses immediately preceding this one - which adds context:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I've got some bible verses for you as well.

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
John 13:34-35 (KJV)

Ephesians 4:1-3

1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

1 John 4:8

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

Luke 6:27-32

"But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them."

Luke 10: 27

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and all you soul, and all your strength, and all your mind. Love your neighbor as yourself."

1 John 4:7-8

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

Revelation 3:20

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

1 John 2:9-10

"He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him."

Matthew 7:6, 12-14

"So always treat others as you would like them to treat you; that is the Law and the Prophets. ... ‘Enter by the narrow gate, since the road that leads to destruction is wide and spacious, and many take it; but it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.’"


1 Corinthians 13:4-8

"Love is patient, love is kind. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in sin, but rejoices with truth. It always protects, always hopes, always trusts, always perseveres. Love never fails."

The way I can translate (I know that this is not what it is saying)the OP, it is saying that atheists are superior because they have no religion to boast that they are superior. You appear to be boasting that since theists believe that faith makes them superior, that they are inferior and because atheists have no such delusions, they are better than theists. Like I said, I am not saying you are insinuating that, but it can come across like that.
For the record, my opinion stands: Some theists believe that they are superior because they have faith. Some atheists believe that they are superior because they have no faith. Can't you see that feeling superior has nothing to do with what faith you have or don't have but it is a human failing? I mean, some people think they are superior because they jog 10 miles a day or they never watch television or whatever. It is not a religious failing or a non-religious failing- IT IS A HUMAN FAILING and only a few people that I have met felt they were superior for any reason.

Kathryn said:

Yes, I believe that all mankind is created in God's image and that God gave each of us unique talents and a purpose. ALL of us.

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fair enough...

By the way, you left off the verses immediately preceding this one - which adds context:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

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well lets go back even further...
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

so really this entire passage supports my claim...

I've got some bible verses for you as well.

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
John 13:34-35 (KJV)

Ephesians 4:1-3
1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

Click to expand...

i'm not sure what you are pointing out to me here. what i'm understanding is
that christians are to love one another so the world can see gods love through how they treat eachother...

1 John 4:8
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

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but what of those that do not know god, does this passage mean they do not love? how else is an unbeliever going to receive that passage?

1 John 2:9-10

"He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him."

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"brother" is a fellow believer in jesus...you see that right?

Luke 6:27-32

"But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them."

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lets be clear who his audience was...
people who already believed...here is the context for this passage:

17 He went down with them and stood on a level place. A large crowd of his disciples was there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coastal region around Tyre and Sidon, 18 who had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases. Those troubled by impure spirits were cured, 19 and the people all tried to touch him, because power was coming from him and healing them all.
so again, we are seeing how a particular group of people are to treat eachother...a fraternity of sorts...

Luke 10: 27

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and all you soul, and all your strength, and all your mind. Love your neighbor as yourself."

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well again, jesus was quoting leviticus 19..
and the context of leviticus is
17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

the good samaritan story is an interesting one... what i can't understand is why was it a samaritan helping the jew...why not the other way around...? and also why not a roman helping the jew or the other way around...?
from what i gather, it's the image of a lowly samaritan helping a superior jew which feeds into the social climate between those two groups
and had luke used a roman to help a jew that wouldn't work for the very same reason...and interestingly enough it is in luke/acts that the term christian is used for the 1st time.
this is when the ties between the jesus followers were severed from the jewish community
remember jesus says...
“Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel... mt 10:5
apparently, priorities changed by the time luke wrote his gospel...


ok, i reponded to a few...
now would you please be so kind to comment on this one passage... :shout

1 peter 2:4
As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”[c]

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[d]

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.,

this just drips of a superior attitude towards the unbelievers...
you can't see that?

ChristineES said:

The way I can translate (I know that this is not what it is saying)the OP, it is saying that atheists are superior because they have no religion to boast that they are superior. You appear to be boasting that since theists believe that faith makes them superior, that they are inferior and because atheists have no such delusions, they are better than theists. Like I said, I am not saying you are insinuating that, but it can come across like that.

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thats fair...
i already pointed out to you how the religious community has infringed on the rights of those who do not adhere to any particular doctrine...
that is my point

For the record, my opinion stands: Some theists believe that they are superior because they have faith. Some atheists believe that they are superior because they have no faith. Can't you see that feeling superior has nothing to do with what faith you have or don't have but it is a human failing?

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well it affects me when my personal freedoms are being stepped on...

I mean, some people think they are superior because they jog 10 miles a day or they never watch television or whatever.

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but these people are not infringing on my personal freedoms by running and living productive lives...

It is not a religious failing or a non-religious failing- IT IS A HUMAN FAILING and only a few people that I have met felt they were superior for any reason.

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again, you are not looking at the problem squarely in the eyes...
personal freedoms are being subjected to religious doctrine today.