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Prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
"By his wounds we are healed" Nobody's wounds heal anybody unless you allow Jesus to fit into it. How can the Gentile nation be healed because of Israel's wounds. How often does the Gentile Nation even speak to Israel like that?
Even your version says
He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities; the
chastisement upon him was for our benefit, and through his wounds, we were healed
We've been over this before.

From messiahtruth.com

"...when in fact the healing is the end of the sickness of anti-Semitism that the nations will experience when they have this enormous revelation about the Jews at the End of Days"
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Additionally... "through his wounds we are healed" couldn't hope to refer to any sacrificed being, man or animal... because wounded animals are unfit, therefore ineffective.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
We've been over this before.

From messiahtruth.com

"...when in fact the healing is the end of the sickness of anti-Semitism that the nations will experience when they have this enormous revelation about the Jews at the End of Days"

The passage says the wounds specifically healed them. Your claim is that "by his wounds" actually implies some great revelation to take place in the future?
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
The passage says the wounds specifically healed them. Your claim is that "by his wounds" actually implies some great revelation to take place in the future?

No. The whole chapter is some great revelation to take place in the future.


Isaiah 53 is the exclamation of the nations of the world as they marvel at Israel's redemption, coming to terms with their terrible treatment of the Jews as having been wrong.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
No. The whole chapter is some great revelation to take place in the future.


Isaiah 53 is the exclamation of the nations of the world as they marvel at Israel's redemption, coming to terms with their terrible treatment of the Jews as having been wrong.

It still doesn't explain how THROUGH Israel's wounds the Gentile nations will be healed. I could see that maybe the Gentiles were troubled by Israel's wounds and that their sorrow brought them to repentance.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
"He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness. As one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised, and we had no regard for him."

This couldn't possibly refer to Jesus. He was esteemed as a teacher... being called "master" and "lord" even by people who weren't his followers.

Jews throughout history, however, have often had to hide the fact that they were Jews, often thought of as sub-human by the people of the nations the Jews lived in.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Here's another interesting bit from the Jews for Judaism website:

Isaiah 53:4 says that the suffering servant was considered "stricken" by his enemies. Does this describe Jesus in any way?


Answer: In verse 4 the Gentile nations exclaim, concerning the servant, "we considered him stricken [by God]." The verb appears again in verse 8. This does not describe Jesus in any way whatsoever.
The verb, nagua, "stricken," is commonly used in the Jewish Scriptures for being stricken with leprosy (for example, 2 Kings 5:27, 15:5; Job 19:21; Leviticus 13:3, 9, 20; Numbers 12:10). Jesus was not stricken physically with leprosy!
Yet, even metaphorically, nagua cannot be applied to Jesus who was not generally shunned as a loathsome pariah. The respectively supportive, indifferent, or hostile audiences he confronts in the Gospels show a variety of responses to his message. Those who apparently despise Jesus are numerically represented in insignificant numbers. They exist, but no more so than one may expect in reaction to any extremely controversial figure. Consideration must also be given to the fact that the great majority of contemporary Jews never heard of Jesus. The application to Jesus of nagua, that is, stricken metaphorically in the manner of one who has leprosy and treated as such by fellow human beings, is unwarranted.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
To build on that particular line of thinking, another bit from the Jews for Judaism website:

Does the Gospel's representation of Jesus show fulfillment of the description of the suffering servant: "he was despised and we esteemed him not" (Isaiah 53:3)?


Answer: The Gospel accounts claim Jesus was popular throughout his life generally (Luke 2:52) and during his public ministry in particular. The evangelists insist that Jesus was greatly admired by large segments from every level of society. What is more, many were his loyal followers. True, the evangelists claim that the Jewish rulers condemned Jesus, but, nevertheless, they assert that Jesus had many followers even among the ruling class. The evangelists speak of Jesus as one who, while losing at times, many of his followers, always had, even at the end of his life, a great many faithful adherents. According to the Gospel accounts, these adherents came from every segment of society.
It is claimed that wherever he went, crowds flocked about him. True, it is said that Jesus felt many followed him for unworthy motives (John 6:26). However, this negative motivation or the servant's disappointment at the lack of true loyalty is not reflected in Isaiah 53:3. There the servant is despised and rejected but nothing is said about his adversaries having, at one time been his followers, let alone that they had unworthy motives in initially following him. In verse 3, they never were his followers to begin with.
The Gospels' Jesus is described in superlative terms that are the exact opposite of one who is despised and rejected. He is "glorified by all" (Luke 4:14-15); "a great crowd came together" to see him (Luke 8:4); "great crowds followed him" from near and far (Matthew 4:25); and he is called "a great prophet" (Luke 7:16).
John states that many of the Jews believed in Jesus (John 12:11), and that among them were many of the rulers who secretly believed in him (John 12:42). In Luke 13:31, we are told that even some of the Pharisees warned Jesus that Herod was planning to kill him and urged him to escape. Matthew 21:46 and Mark 12:12, 37, inform us that Jesus taught the crowds in the Temple and that his enemies were afraid to arrest him because they feared the multitudes who listened to him enthusiastically. Moreover, when his enemies made their final plans to arrest him, they decided: "Not during the festival, lest there be an uproar of the people" (Matthew 26:5, Mark 14:1-2, see also Luke 22:2). When Jesus entered Jerusalem, it was to the accompanying shouts of "Hosanna" coming from the crowds (Matthew 21:9) that declared him to be "the prophet Jesus" (Matthew 21:11).
Was Jesus abandoned in his last hours? As Jesus went to be crucified "a great multitude of people, and of women" accompanied him "beating themselves and bewailing him" (Luke 23:27). At his crucifixion "many women [supporters] were there looking from a distance" (Matthew 27:55, Mark 14:40, Luke 23:49); Luke adds "all those acquainted with him were standing at a distance" (Luke 23:49); "all the multitude" attending the crucifixion began "beating their breasts" (Luke 23:48). John mentions the presence at the crucifixion of "the disciple whom he loved" (John 19:20). Nicodemus, a Pharisee and "a ruler of the Jews" (John 3:1), helped Joseph of Arimathaea, a rich man, to prepare the body for burial (John 19:39). Joseph of Arimathaea was a disciple of Jesus (Matthew 27:57, John 19:38) and a member of the Sanhedrin (Luke 23:50-51).
The overall Gospel accounts claim that Jesus had a large and loyal following throughout Judea and the surrounding territories. This group, it is alleged, consisted of people from among every strata of society. These were individuals who did not know of events in Jerusalem and were still loyal to him.
Some Christians claim that Jesus died without any significant following. This, however, is only an argument necessitated by theological needs. The Gospels allege that the masses adhered to a messianic belief that Jesus, who was believed to be the son of David (Matthew 9:27), was not only the prophet promised in Deuteronomy 18:15 (John 7:40), but was in fact, the very Messiah himself (John 7:41). Even though there was a division among the crowd over who he was (John 7:43), and many of his disciple left him (John 6:66), we must assume, the Gospels not telling us otherwise, that thousands of people throughout the country, still believed in him as the Messiah at the time of his crucifixion. It should be noted that, according to the Gospel narratives, the general Jewish populace did not have occasion to directly reject Jesus' messianic assertions, since he had not openly claimed to be the Messiah (Matthew 16:16, 20; Mark 8:29-30; Luke 9:20-21).
The words of Isaiah 53:3: "He was despised and rejected of men . . . and as one from whom men hide their faces . . . and we esteemed him not" cannot be applied to Jesus if one is to believe the New Testament narrative.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
"He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness. As one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised, and we had no regard for him."

This couldn't possibly refer to Jesus. He was esteemed as a teacher... being called "master" and "lord" even by people who weren't his followers.

Jews throughout history, however, have often had to hide the fact that they were Jews, often thought of as sub-human by the people of the nations the Jews lived in.

He was rejected by most of the people he went to. Would you agree that for the most part the Jewish nation rejected him? Jesus was from Nazareth, a part of Israel joked about and despised. A New Testament passage says that someone scoffed by saying "can anything good come from Nazareth" when they heard about the preacher from that town. He was poor also, a carpenter, from a backwater town. He had enough people who despised him that they were able to bring charges against him and get him executed. He was abandoned by his friends and disciples when Judas his disciple and the Romans came for him. I think Jesus fits the quote like a glove.
 
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Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
He was rejected by most of the people he went to. Would you agree that for the most part the Jewish nation rejected him? Jesus was from Nazareth, a part of Israel joked about and despised. A New Testament passage says that someone scoffed by saying "can anything good come from Nazareth" when they heard about the preacher from that town. He was poor also, a carpenter, from a backwater town. He had enough people who despised him that they were able to bring charges against him and get him executed. He was abandoned by his friends and disciples when Judas his disciple and the Romans came for him. I think Jesus fits the quote like a glove.

Read posts 48 and 49
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
We'll continue this again. That's a long argument on post 49 and it'll take a minute to respond to it all. Peace


Before we end for the night, let me ask... where are you? Seems to me like the time you're online is quite late, which leads me to believe you're either a night owl, or you're on the West Coast.

I'm just curious.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Before we end for the night, let me ask... where are you? Seems to me like the time you're online is quite late, which leads me to believe you're either a night owl, or you're on the West Coast.

I'm just curious.

Ohio. Same timezone as you and and a night owl just like you:D
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Biblical prophecies were meant in large part for their day and time only. And most were not fulfilled.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Biblical prophecies were meant in large part for their day and time only. And most were not fulfilled.

I think both of us would be willing to talk about this with you but I ask respectfully that we take it into a different thread. We'd like to keep the focus of these on the scriptural debate of the Messaih. Not whether prophecy in general is all a sham.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
I'll address Jesus as the despised in a few moments. I wanted to talk context in this post. I found a compelling point at this site: Outreach to Judaism | Who is the Servant of Isaiah 53?

the quote says it best:
"The servant of Isa. 53 is the “righteous servant” (v. 11), meek “as a lamb” (v. 7), who had done no violence and had no deceit in his mouth (v. 9). This is hardly a description of national Israel at any time in its history. Isaiah uniformly describes Israel as apostate, sinful and iniquitous, doing “deeds of violence” (chap. 59, especially v. 7), “children of transgression, offspring of deceit” (57:4). Though Israel in Babylonian exile suffered double what she deserved (40:2) she was hardly “my righteous servant” suffering innocently for the guilty, either before, during, or after the exile. The exile was a punishment for sin. The biblical record shows Jewish history as checkered -- sometimes good, often bad.
So who is the Servant of Isaiah 53? Is he the nation of Israel suffering for the sins of the Gentiles? In view of the statements in Ezekiel 18 that God does not make the innocent suffer for the guilty (which Jewish expositors quote against the idea of substitutionary atonement) why should Israel have to suffer for the sins of the nations? In this world the innocent constantly suffer for the sins of the wicked; but such suffering is not from God. Yet Isa. 53 clearly states “the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all” (v. 6) and that “it was the will of the LORD to bruise him” and “put him to grief” (v. 10). God has never made Israel the sin-bearer for the Gentiles."

The interesting point is that Israel in this time of it's history doesn't have the integrity of the servant Isaiah is talking about.
Also, it's an interesting debate being waged about the Hebrew word Lamo which is used to desribe the servant in the plural. I'm no Hebrew scholar but the arguement appears to have some merit. Outreach to Judaism | Is Lamo the Smoking Gun of Isaiah 53?
 
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