Things the Bible does not say

Qumran · Oct 6, 2005

We agree on so many points in your post.

Instead of reading ONLY the words and meaning that is there, many people want to see more than the words say - they become masters at reading BETWEEN the lines...problem is...they are not very good at READING THE LINES themselves!

On a slightly unrelated note, I agree with your quote here:

lilithu said:
Regarding omniscience:

All it says is that God sees everything we do; it doesn't say that God knows what we're thinking or what we will do. ...... To me, that would be a big gaping hole in the "all-knowing" claim.

If you (not YOU Lilithu, rather the original poster) interpret these various passages to mean that God knows everything, all the time, from the distant past, present and into the eternal future - that he knows what we think and everything we will do, in advance - what is the point in testing us? We are not free to do anything other than what he has already foreseen, right? (It becomes very like the eastern concept that everything is preordained)

Why did he allow Adam to believe he had a choice in the garden of Eden? Did God not know, in advance, that Adam would sin? If he did, Adam could not possibly have altered God's vision of the future - in affect, Adam would have had NO CHOICE.

God, knowing Adam would sin (even before he created him) then PUNISHED Adam with death - and condemned all mankind to death and misery - and he forsaw it ALL - before ever he decided to create the earth or humans on it. The same would hold true for Satan, the Devil. He knew he would fall, so why did he create him in the first place?

I DON'T BUY THIS VIEW. I respect everyone who believes this, but, to me it makes no sense.

harold e. rice · Oct 6, 2005

The bible doesnt say that cleanliness is next to Godliness.

nutshell · Oct 6, 2005

Qumran said:
If you (not YOU Lilithu, rather the original poster) interpret these various passages to mean that God knows everything, all the time, from the distant past, present and into the eternal future - that he knows what we think and everything we will do, in advance - what is the point in testing us? We are not free to do anything other than what he has already foreseen, right? (It becomes very like the eastern concept that everything is preordained)

Why did he allow Adam to believe he had a choice in the garden of Eden? Did God not know, in advance, that Adam would sin? If he did, Adam could not possibly have altered God's vision of the future - in affect, Adam would have had NO CHOICE.

God, knowing Adam would sin (even before he created him) then PUNISHED Adam with death - and condemned all mankind to death and misery - and he forsaw it ALL - before ever he decided to create the earth or humans on it. The same would hold true for Satan, the Devil. He knew he would fall, so why did he create him in the first place?

I DON'T BUY THIS VIEW. I respect everyone who believes this, but, to me it makes no sense.

Even if God knows how it will all end, this experience isn't for Him, it's for us. The Fall was a necessary step for our progression and because God does know all, it was already a part of the plan that Christ would be our Saviour.

Jayhawker Soule · Oct 6, 2005

nutshell said:
The Fall was a necessary step for our progression and because God does know all, it was already a part of the plan that Christ would be our Saviour.

"Necessary"? So your God was constrained to create an existence wherein "the Fall was a necessary step". Why then blame your Adam & Eve?

Ernesto · Oct 6, 2005

If anybody finds me a mention of dinosaurs, I will praise them as a Christian praises Jesus...

Aqualung · Oct 6, 2005

Jayhawker Soule said:
"Necessary"? So your God was constrained to create an existence wherein "the Fall was a necessary step". Why then blame your Adam & Eve?

We don't. Other christians might, but LDS don't.

JesusIsTheWay · Oct 6, 2005

lilithu said:
I've got a couple, but they're both controversial:

The bible does not say that God is a trinity.

The bible does not say that abortion is wrong.

Oh and the bible does not say that Jesus was born on December 25th.

And then I have a couple questions, which may or may not be further answers to your question depending on the answers:

Where in the bible does it say that God is omniscient?

Where in the bible does it say that God is omnipotent?

The bible does not say that God is a trinity.
Yes it does. "In the beginning God [Elohim] created..." (Genesis 1:1). Elohim is plural, meaning more than one person in the Gohead. Consider this: "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26)
Here is another example in the Old Testament: Isaiah 6:8
"Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"
"Whom shall I send" (one God)
"Who will go for Us" (three persons)
Matthew 28:19 gives us another reference: "Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

There are many, many more Scriptures and if you want more, let me know.

1. God the Father is God
2. God the Son is God
3. God the Holy Spirit is God
God the Father
The Son of God
The Spirit of God
They are three persons existing as one God. This can not be exampled and nobody can really understand it. We must take it by faith. Because, "We walk [live] by faith, not by sight."

The bible does not say that abortion is wrong.
Show me where the Bible says that we have the right to kill.

Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Psalm 139:14-16 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes say my unformed body.
(Note: secret place...depths of the earth. The reference is to the womb: called "The seret place because it normally conceals (see 2 Samuel 12:12), and it shares with "the depths of the earth" associations with darkness, dampness, and separation from the visible realm of life. Taken from the NIV Study Bible text note.)
"You shall not kill" (Ten Commandments in Exodus)

Oh and the bible does not say that Jesus was born on December 25th.
He wasn't. I remember reading something about that, and I believe that it said He was born in November or something...

Where in the bible does it say that God is omniscient?
1 John 3:20 God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
Job 37:16 Perfect in knowledge
Psalm 147:5 His understanding is infinite
The word "perfect" in Job 37:16 means "absolutely whole, entire, complete, finished, that to which nothing can be added."
There are just a few.

Where in the bible does it say that God is omnipotent?
Genesis 18:14 Is anything to hard for the Lord?
Job 42:2 [Job said,] "I know that You can do everything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You."
Matthew 19:26 With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
These are just a few.

- David

Merlin · Oct 6, 2005

michel said:
That is interesting; would you explain how ? - I am not 'poking fun' I am genuinely interested.

University of Harvard published in America the fragment of the so-called "Secret Gospel of Mark" (scarcely 20 lines), interpreted by the American scholar in a homosexual sense. With regard to Jesus' raising of a young man from a tomb in Bethany, the text says: "The young man, looking at him, loved him.... Six days later ... in the evening the young man joined him wearing a cloth of linen over his naked body; that night he stayed with him, and Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God".

Aqualung · Oct 6, 2005

interesting...

lilithu · Oct 6, 2005

Merlin said:
University of Harvard published in America the fragment of the so-called "Secret Gospel of Mark" (scarcely 20 lines), interpreted by the American scholar in a homosexual sense. With regard to Jesus' raising of a young man from a tomb in Bethany, the text says: "The young man, looking at him, loved him.... Six days later ... in the evening the young man joined him wearing a cloth of linen over his naked body; that night he stayed with him, and Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God".

Which could also be interpreted as:... having been revived from death the young man loved Jesus the way he would love anyone who saved his life, and he decided to devote his life to Jesus' teachings. Six days later, dressed very simply like monks and ascetics do, the young man came to learn from Jesus directly about Jesus' vision of the kingdom of God, perhaps even learning things that Jesus did not tell his other disciples. And he was so dedicated that he stayed up all night listening and learning.

In the gospel of Mary it says more than once that Jesus kissed Mary on the mouth. But rather than take this as evidence that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were an item, one has to remember that in the idiom of the time and place this was written, to kiss on the mouth meant to transmit knowledge directly from one to another with no intercessor; it meant that Jesus was granting Mary the spiritual authority to speak for him.

These things cannot be taken out of the context in which they were written.

Not blaming you Merlin, but I do not look forward to what other people will do with this "information." We don't know anything about Jesus' love life, straight or gay, married or celibate or promiscuous, we don't know, and frankly, it's not important.

linwood · Oct 6, 2005

In the gospel of Mary it says more than once that Jesus kissed Mary on the mouth. But rather than take this as evidence that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were an item, one has to remember that in the idiom of the time and place this was written, to kiss on the mouth meant to transmit knowledge directly from one to another with no intercessor; it meant that Jesus was granting Mary the spiritual authority to speak for him.

Have you some reference for this Lilithu?
I`m not looking for a debate, quite the opposite the concept seems to jibe very well with my limited knowledge of Gnostic tradition.
I`d just like to see if thats where it stems from.

linwood · Oct 6, 2005

Yes it does. "In the beginning God [Elohim] created..." (Genesis 1:1). Elohim is plural, meaning more than one person in the Gohead. Consider this: "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26)
Here is another example in the Old Testament: Isaiah 6:8
"Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"
"Whom shall I send" (one God)
"Who will go for Us" (three persons)

Another interpretation would be that the ancient writers of the OT weren`t monotheistic which would seem to be the case when the OT is read in entirety.

jonny · Oct 6, 2005

lilithu said:
Which could also be interpreted as:... having been revived from death the young man loved Jesus the way he would love anyone who saved his life, and he decided to devote his life to Jesus' teachings. Six days later, dressed very simply like monks and ascetics do, the young man came to learn from Jesus directly about Jesus' vision of the kingdom of God, perhaps even learning things that Jesus did not tell his other disciples. And he was so dedicated that he stayed up all night listening and learning.

In the gospel of Mary it says more than once that Jesus kissed Mary on the mouth. But rather than take this as evidence that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were an item, one has to remember that in the idiom of the time and place this was written, to kiss on the mouth meant to transmit knowledge directly from one to another with no intercessor; it meant that Jesus was granting Mary the spiritual authority to speak for him.

These things cannot be taken out of the context in which they were written.

Not blaming you Merlin, but I do not look forward to what other people will do with this "information." We don't know anything about Jesus' love life, straight or gay, married or celibate or promiscuous, we don't know, and frankly, it's not important.

I agree. Does the word naked automatically make the writings sexual? I'm naked under the cloth that I'm wearing.

It sounds to me like a humble person was taught something very special by the Savior.

Deut 13:1 · Oct 6, 2005

JesusIsTheWay said:
"You shall not kill" (Ten Commandments in Exodus)

Oh my... The stupidity hurts... :banghead3

Apriori · Oct 6, 2005

OK, please start a new thread onthe secret gospel of mark and gospel of mary thing so we can get back on track with this thread. Thanks.

lilithu · Oct 6, 2005

JesusIsTheWay said:
The bible does not say that God is a trinity.
Yes it does. "In the beginning God [Elohim] created..." (Genesis 1:1). Elohim is plural, meaning more than one person in the Gohead. Consider this: "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26)

Yes, I am familiar with God being refered to in the plural. But you have yet to point out where it says that the plural is three or where the bible specifically says that God is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. All the rest is interpretation. You may be right in your interpretation, but it still is the case that the bible does not specifically say it.

JesusIsTheWay said:
The bible does not say that abortion is wrong.
Show me where the Bible says that we have the right to kill.

Dude, the bible is full of places where it was ok to kill.

JesusIsTheWay said:
Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Psalm 139:14-16 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes say my unformed body.
(Note: secret place...depths of the earth. The reference is to the womb: called "The seret place because it normally conceals (see 2 Samuel 12:12), and it shares with "the depths of the earth" associations with darkness, dampness, and separation from the visible realm of life. Taken from the NIV Study Bible text note.)

All this says is that God made us and can see into the womb. It does not prohibit killing that which is in the womb. Again, your interpretation.

JesusIsTheWay said:
"You shall not kill" (Ten Commandments in Exodus)

It's "Thou shalt not murder". If it were thou shalt not kill, we would all be in a lot of trouble.

The Hebrew word, "ratsach," refers to the premediated killing of a human being, and even then, the commandment doesn't really prohibit the killing of all human beings. Taken in context, there are clearly circumstances where killing humans was considered justified.

JesusIsTheWay said:
Where in the bible does it say that God is omniscient?
1 John 3:20 God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
Job 37:16 Perfect in knowledge
Psalm 147:5 His understanding is infinite
The word "perfect" in Job 37:16 means "absolutely whole, entire, complete, finished, that to which nothing can be added."

Really? That's funny 'cause I've read Job several times and I don't recall anywhere in the text where it gives the definition of "perfect." (Tho I could have used you in the "Is God perfect" thread.) But I'm glad that you bring Job up, as he is a perfect counter-example to God's supposed omniscience. If God knows everything, including what is in Job's heart, then God already knows whether Job is the most "blameless and upright" man, "who fears God and shuns evil," or whether Job is only acting upright to get reward or avoid punishment. If God already knows, then His little wager with Satan is purely sadistic.

JesusIsTheWay said:
Where in the bible does it say that God is omnipotent?
Genesis 18:14 Is anything to hard for the Lord?
Job 42:2 [Job said,] "I know that You can do everything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You."
Matthew 19:26 With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

All depends on what "omnipotent" means. Which was my point in putting them in the list.

Perhaps you should also take a look at the omnipotence thread.

nutshell · Oct 6, 2005

One thing the Bible does not say:

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It's very very close, but not quite the same as what is commonly known as the Golden Rule.

lilithu · Oct 6, 2005

First off, Apriori, I apologize for not complying with your request and starting a new thread on the gospel of Mary. The reason is that I believe we can take care of this in one post. And I promise that if we can't, I will switch over to PM.

linwood said:
Have you some reference for this Lilithu?
I`m not looking for a debate, quite the opposite the concept seems to jibe very well with my limited knowledge of Gnostic tradition.
I`d just like to see if thats where it stems from.

Namaste Linwood,

It's a good thing that you asked about this because my memory is not entirely accurate. I was recalling that information from a lecture that I heard last year by an expert on the gospel of Mary. I took copious notes but I can't believe I didn't write her name down! I will ask a friend and PM you with the info. Anyway, it does not say more than once in the gospel of Mary that Jesus kissed her on the mouth. Rather, it says once in the gospel of Philip in reference to Mary that Jesus "kissed her often on the ...." (there's a gap there). Most scholars believe that the missing word is "mouth." According to the lecturer, this was a common phrase at the time, to kiss on the mouth meaning to transmit direct knowledge.

If you're asking specifically about that last part, like I said, I will PM you with the woman's name when I get it. But I heard it in a lecture and she may or may not have written about it; I wouldn't be able to direct you to a reference in print.

The closest I could find was this website by the BBC, and they don't state it as stongly as she did:

"Some scholars have interpreted the kiss in a more spiritual sense and see kissing as a symbol for an intimate reception of teaching, of the word of God, of really learning. The image of Jesus and Mary as engaged in mouth to mouth closeness suggests not necessarily sexuality, but the transmission of divine knowledge."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/features/biblemysteries/mary.shtml

But I can give you this from the Gospel of Thomas, another Gnostic gospel, to support the mouth thing:

He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him.'
Gospel of Thomas, 50.28-30, NHL

Actually, I went back and reread Mary because of your question and found it to be much more interesting than I remembered. All I remembered the first time around was Mary being the favorite, and Peter being jealous, and Mary crying.

I totally forgot that in this gospel, Jesus says that there is no such thing as sin!

If anyone wants ot know more about Mary as depicted in the gnostic gospels of Philip, Mary, and Thomas, just pm me and I'll start a thread.

linwood · Oct 6, 2005

"Some scholars have interpreted the kiss in a more spiritual sense and see kissing as a symbol for an intimate reception of teaching, of the word of God, of really learning. The image of Jesus and Mary as engaged in mouth to mouth closeness suggests not necessarily sexuality, but the transmission of divine knowledge."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/relig...ries/mary.shtml

He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him.'
Gospel of Thomas, 50.28-30, NHL

How could I be so idiotically blind!??
Thank you Lilithu.

Now..umm..onto your regularly scheduled thread, with no more derails.
I promise.

Merlin · Oct 7, 2005

lilithu said:
Not blaming you Merlin, but I do not look forward to what other people will do with this "information." We don't know anything about Jesus' love life, straight or gay, married or celibate or promiscuous, we don't know, and frankly, it's not important.

Thank you for not blaming me for responding to a request by one of the other contributors. This is not my comment, it is an interpretation by a research graduate from one of the American universities. I only reprinted it for you.

Actually, many people believe that Jesus and Mary were married. They believe that the wedding at which Jesus created wine from water was his own wedding. There is quite a lot of evidence that that is true. But I do agree with one thing you have said, so what? Unfortunately, we could say that about most of the conversations we have, so it is not a helpful comment.

Things the Bible does not say

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