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Women rights in Christianity?

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
JerryL said:
Speaking of looking stupid for not reading. Please finish the following sentance:

The topic of this thread is "Women rights in __________"

If you really want to have a discussion on the dual written/oral triditions in orthidox and reform Judaism, and when and how the attitudes towards women formed and changed in that religion, feel free to start a thread; THIS thread is about Christianity.
Did Christianity not come from Judaism? I would think the answers would be identical or very close to each other.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Did Christianity not come from Judaism? I would think the answers would be identical or very close to each other.
That would be a mistake on your part. I'm not entierly clear that even Judaism is Judaism any more.

Do you support stoning to death a child who doesn't listen when he is scolded? Do you support stoning to death anyone who works on the Sabbath? Do you wear clothing of mixed materials? Do you shave or trim your beard?

These are all clearly spelled out in the OT, and are clearly spelled out in the written half of Jewesh law. You can assert the laws have changed since 60CE, that's fine, but then how are they supposed to relate to a religion that's older than that?

The Christians believe the the Christian Bible is the literal or inspired word of God. There are clear and concrete attitudes towards women in the Christian Bible.

But again, if you would like to discuss the role of women and womens rights in Judaism, feel free to make a thread. I may even participate.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
JerryL said:
That would be a mistake on your part. I'm not entierly clear that even Judaism is Judaism any more.

Do you support stoning to death a child who doesn't listen when he is scolded?
See the answer below.

JerryL said:
Do you support stoning to death anyone who works on the Sabbath?
Yes, get a court of 23 Ordained Rabbi's to punish a Jew who KNOWINGLY violates the Sabbath. Oh wait, you're not Jewish? Good for you, go work on the Sabbath. Oh wait, the Romans killed off the direct line of Ordained Rabbi's from Moses. What are you saying? That we should change Hashem's word to do the death penalty without the proper court and trial even though he expressively told us that the death penalty may ONLY be done with the proper trial?

JerryL said:
Do you wear clothing of mixed materials?
Yes, I happen to like polyester, where does it say it's forbidden?

JerryL said:
Do you shave or trim your beard?
No, but if I wanted I could cut it as long as I don't use a razor on the skin.

JerryL said:
These are all clearly spelled out in the OT, and are clearly spelled out in the written half of Jewesh law.
If they were clearly spelled out, you would understand the context of them instead of posting non-sense like every other bible thumper.

JerryL said:
You can assert the laws have changed since 60CE, that's fine, but then how are they supposed to relate to a religion that's older than that?
Again, what's changed? You're so sure that items like polyester are forbidden, prove it. Where does it say items like polyester sweaters are forbidden? It doesn't.

JerryL said:
The Christians believe the the Christian Bible is the literal or inspired word of God. There are clear and concrete attitudes towards women in the Christian Bible.
Good for them, I'm happy for you guys. I'm sure you guys put a lot of faith in your translations. Good luck with your translations that are apparently better then the original.

JerryL said:
But again, if you would like to discuss the role of women and womens rights in Judaism, feel free to make a thread. I may even participate.
I don't need to, I fail to see how there are differences in Judaism and Christianity when it comes to the treatment of women.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Yes, get a court of 23 Ordained Rabbi's to punish a Jew who KNOWINGLY violates the Sabbath. Oh wait, you're not Jewish? Good for you, go work on the Sabbath. Oh wait, the Romans killed off the direct line of Ordained Rabbi's from Moses. What are you saying? That we should change Hashem's word to do the death penalty without the proper court and trial even though he expressively told us that the death penalty may ONLY be done with the proper trial?
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You must not do any work-you, your son or daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the foreigner who is within your gates - Exodus 20:10

For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, dedicated to the Lord. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. - Exodus 31:15

For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, dedicated to the Lord. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. - Exodus 35:2

but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You must not do any work-you, your son or daughter, your male or female slave, your ox or donkey, any of your livestock, or the foreigner who lives within your gates, so that your male and female slaves may rest as you do. - Deut 5:14
Shall I continue? I can go look up the same texts in Jewesh writings, but it doesn't matter because in either case I win. Either these are accurate, and Jews must kill anyone who works on the Sabbath, or these writings are inaccurate and Judaism cannot be used to determine Christian attitudes and beliefs.

And be careful who you decide is or is not Jewesh. You know nothing of my liniage.

Yes, I happen to like polyester, where does it say it's forbidden?
Leviticus 19:19 "Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material"

No, but if I wanted I could cut it as long as I don't use a razor on the skin.
Lev 19:27: "You must not shave or cut the corners of the hairs of your head and you are not to trim (mar or clip off) the edge (corners) of your beard"

If they were clearly spelled out, you would understand the context of them instead of posting non-sense like every other bible thumper.
Really? Explain to me the context of "Anyone who does work on the Sabbath must be put to death". Now you've decided I'm a Bible thumper? Wow, you really do need to work on your assumptions.

Again, what's changed? You're so sure that items like polyester are forbidden, prove it. Where does it say items like polyester sweaters are forbidden? It doesn't.
Leviticus 19:19 says it. You should check your facts before you rant.

Good for them, I'm happy for you guys. I'm sure you guys put a lot of faith in your translations. Good luck with your translations that are apparently better then the original.
We can discuss it in Hebrew and Greek if you like. I'm pretty rsuty at both, but the nice thing about a discussion board is I can refresh on specific points of contention. Feel free to dispute my quotes in regards to their original-language meanings.

I don't need to, I fail to see how there are differences in Judaism and Christianity when it comes to the treatment of women.
If there are no differences than you can use Christian support. You are not discussing Christianity, you are discussing Judaism. There's a reason I'm citing the OT rather than the Halakhah from the Torah and Gezeriah (which forbids you to enen handle a tool that would be used for work on the Sabbath), and Takkanah and Minhag.

As I said, feel free to start a thread on it if you like.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
JerryL said:
Shall I continue? I can go look up the same texts in Jewesh writings, but it doesn't matter because in either case I win. Either these are accurate, and Jews must kill anyone who works on the Sabbath, or these writings are inaccurate and Judaism cannot be used to determine Christian attitudes and beliefs.
You have proven that it is indeed against the jewish law to work on the sabbath, and I think binyamin already stated that he supported the penalty for a jew who did work on that day. But he has also stated that not just anyone can go around stoning whoever they please. The sentence has to be imposed by a certain authority, which Binyamin has already pointed out is not in existance.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
You have proven that it is indeed against the jewish law to work on the sabbath, and I think binyamin already stated that he supported the penalty for a jew who did work on that day. But he has also stated that not just anyone can go around stoning whoever they please. The sentence has to be imposed by a certain authority, which Binyamin has already pointed out is not in existance.
Actually, he disputed that it applied to non-Jews, which is directly contradicted. He also asserted this authority without Biblical scripture to support it (the standard, as I understand it, is 2 witnesseses). He also admitted to personally wearing clothing of mixed materials and seeing nothign wrong with it. He also implied strongly that he does indeed perform work on the Sabbath and sees nothing wrong with that.

Certainly, all of these are extra-Biblical (for someone who does not sahre the NT at least), which establishes his claim of "what goes for Judaism goes for Christianity as false), as well as being unsupported from a Jewesh standpoint shy of more modern (and contrary) laws, such as are found in reformed Judaism.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
JerryL said:
Actually, he disputed that it applied to non-Jews, which is directly contradicted.
Actually, he said exactly the opposite.
Binyamin said:
Yes, get a court of 23 Ordained Rabbi's to punish a Jew who KNOWINGLY violates the Sabbath. Oh wait, you're not Jewish? Good for you, go work on the Sabbath.
(bolds mine)
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Aqualung said:
Actually, he said exactly the opposite.
(bolds mine)
You are correct. I made a typo in my post. My post should have said: "Binyamin said that the Sabbth rule (no working or be stoned) *only* applied to Jews, and this is clearly false (exo 20:10, Deut 5:14)"


*** edit
In rereading my own post, I see that it's not so much a typo as confusing language on my part (same effect on you, but I want to be accurate here as well).

He disputed that it applied to non-Jews; which is to say I claimed that it did, and he disputed that claim by inferring that it did not. I'm sorry that the way I phrased it was unclear and will keep an eye out for that in the future.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
JerryL said:
You are correct. I made a typo in my post. My post should have said: "Binyamin said that the Sabbth rule (no working or be stoned) *only* applied to Jews, and this is clearly false (exo 20:10, Deut 5:14)"
Aahh. Okey dokey. continue on then. :D
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
Sorry I took forever to respond, Rosh Hashana ended 4 hours ago, and I just got home.

JerryL said:
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You must not do any work-you, your son or daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the foreigner who is within your gates - Exodus 20:10
The correct translation is convert, not foreigner. If need be, I'll bold the Hebrew word and you can look it up yourself. Although if you insist it means foreigner, just read the "who is within your gates", cool so they decide to live as a Jew in Jewish land but not follow the laws? The court would then figure out if he knew what he did was wrong.

JerryL said:
For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, dedicated to the Lord. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. - Exodus 31:15
Again, this applies to Jews.

JerryL said:
For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, dedicated to the Lord. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. - Exodus 35:2
Applies to Jews. You're not realizing that if you don't live in a Jewish community, we don't care what you do. We don't care what people in Australia do on the Sabbath.

JerryL said:
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You must not do any work-you, your son or daughter, your male or female slave, your ox or donkey, any of your livestock, or the foreigner who lives within your gates, so that your male and female slaves may rest as you do. - Deut 5:14
Same Hebrew word is used, it means convert.

JerryL said:
Shall I continue? I can go look up the same texts in Jewesh writings, but it doesn't matter because in either case I win. Either these are accurate, and Jews must kill anyone who works on the Sabbath, or these writings are inaccurate and Judaism cannot be used to determine Christian attitudes and beliefs.
Go ahead and continue.

JerryL said:
And be careful who you decide is or is not Jewesh. You know nothing of my liniage.
Why not fill me in? :)

JerryL said:
Leviticus 19:19 "Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material"
Leviticus 19:19
Do not wear a garment that contains a forbidden mixture of fabrics.
Et-chukotay tishmoru behemtecha lo-tarbia kil'ayim sadecha lo-tizra kil'ayim uveged kil'ayim sha'atnez lo ya'aleh aleycha.

And this:
Deuteronomy 22:11 Do not wear a forbidden mixture, where wool and linen are together [in a single garment].
Lo tilbash sha'atnez tsemer ufishtim yachdav.

Cool, so Wool and linen are forbidden, how does that apply to polyester?

JerryL said:
Lev 19:27: "You must not shave or cut the corners of the hairs of your head and you are not to trim (mar or clip off) the edge (corners) of your beard"
Okay, try this:
Lev 19:27: "You shall not round off the edge of your scalp and you shall not destroy the edge of your beard."
Okay, so were not allowed to remove the hair from the sideburn area - the edges - of the head.

JerryL said:
Really? Explain to me the context of "Anyone who does work on the Sabbath must be put to death". Now you've decided I'm a Bible thumper? Wow, you really do need to work on your assumptions.
Okay, I'll work on my assumptions about you. :)

JerryL said:
Leviticus 19:19 says it. You should check your facts before you rant.
Look above, now who needs to check their facts before you respond to the given rant. ;)

JerryL said:
We can discuss it in Hebrew and Greek if you like. I'm pretty rsuty at both, but the nice thing about a discussion board is I can refresh on specific points of contention. Feel free to dispute my quotes in regards to their original-language meanings.
Why would I know greek?

JerryL said:
If there are no differences than you can use Christian support. You are not discussing Christianity, you are discussing Judaism. There's a reason I'm citing the OT rather than the Halakhah from the Torah and Gezeriah (which forbids you to enen handle a tool that would be used for work on the Sabbath), and Takkanah and Minhag.
Feel free to cite what you like, if I'm not sure of my answer, I'll just ask my Rabbi before I respond, so far though, nothing to hard to figure out.

JerryL said:
As I said, feel free to start a thread on it if you like.
I don't care enough to start its own thread. ;)
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
JerryL said:
Actually, he disputed that it applied to non-Jews, which is directly contradicted. He also asserted this authority without Biblical scripture to support it (the standard, as I understand it, is 2 witnesseses). He also admitted to personally wearing clothing of mixed materials and seeing nothign wrong with it. He also implied strongly that he does indeed perform work on the Sabbath and sees nothing wrong with that.
Yes, I wear clothing with polyester, where does it say it's wrong?
I don't do work on the Sabbath, where did I say I did? I said, I don't care if gentiles do work.

JerryL said:
Certainly, all of these are extra-Biblical (for someone who does not sahre the NT at least), which establishes his claim of "what goes for Judaism goes for Christianity as false), as well as being unsupported from a Jewesh standpoint shy of more modern (and contrary) laws, such as are found in reformed Judaism.
There may or may not be differences on how women are treated in the NT, I'm not familiar with it enough to be positive, but my guess is that they wouldn't be treated that differently...
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
The correct translation is convert, not foreigner. If need be, I'll bold the Hebrew word and you can look it up yourself. Although if you insist it means foreigner, just read the "who is within your gates", cool so they decide to live as a Jew in Jewish land but not follow the laws? The court would then figure out if he knew what he did was wrong.
There are about a dozen major translations of the Bible, all written by scholars of Hebrew. I'm not aware of a singe one which jibes with your assertion, but I'm happy to discuss the Hebrew.

Your other argument is a red herring; none of the laws were intended for the Jews to go enforce in China. It was for them to enforce wherever they actually lived.

Again, this applies to Jews.
It applies to God's people. It is God's will on how people should act and what punishments are appropriate for which crime. Further, the laws are asserted as "good":
"Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." " - Deut 4:6
Applies to Jews. You're not realizing that if you don't live in a Jewish community, we don't care what you do. We don't care what people in Australia do on the Sabbath.
If you are going to be a literalist, it applies to Isreal. In that case, the Bible says nothign at all about anyone else anywhere and this entire topic is moot.

The law clearly applies to non-Jews; the question you could argue is wheter it applies outside of the now non-existant ancient Isreal.

Applies to Jews. You're not realizing that if you don't live in a Jewish community, we don't care what you do. We don't care what people in Australia do on the Sabbath.
Not in any translation I've ever seen... but I'm happy to discuss it.

Why not fill me in?
Because your assumptions destroy your credibility and occasionally make me snicker.

Okay, try this:
Lev 19:27: "You shall not round off the edge of your scalp and you shall not destroy the edge of your beard."
Okay, so were not allowed to remove the hair from the sideburn area - the edges - of the head.
Argueable, but fair enough to concede.

Look above, now who needs to check their facts before you respond to the given rant.
I count two people... though mine was checked, perhaps not throughly enough.

Why would I know greek?
You wanted to dispute translations regarding the Christian Bible. The oldest manuscripts are in Hebrew and Greek respectively. If you can't discuss Greek, then you can't discuss the original manuscripts of most of the NT.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
JerryL said:
There are about a dozen major translations of the Bible, all written by scholars of Hebrew. I'm not aware of a singe one which jibes with your assertion, but I'm happy to discuss the Hebrew.
Shemos 20:10 כִּי שֵׁשֶׁת-יָמִים עָשָׂה יְהוָה אֶת-הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֶת-הָאָרֶץ, אֶת-הַיָּם וְאֶת-כָּל-אֲשֶׁר-בָּם, וַיָּנַח, בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי; עַל-כֵּן, בֵּרַךְ יְהוָה אֶת-יוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת--וַיְקַדְּשֵׁהוּ

Shemos 31:15 שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים, יֵעָשֶׂה מְלָאכָה, וּבַיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי שַׁבַּת שַׁבָּתוֹן קֹדֶשׁ, לַיהוָה; כָּל-הָעֹשֶׂה מְלָאכָה בְּיוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת, מוֹת יוּמָת

Shemos 35:2שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים, תֵּעָשֶׂה מְלָאכָה, וּבַיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי יִהְיֶה לָכֶם קֹדֶשׁ שַׁבַּת שַׁבָּתוֹן, לַיהוָה; כָּל- הָעֹשֶׂה בוֹ מְלָאכָה, יוּמָת

Devarim 5:14 וְזָכַרְתָּ, כִּי עֶבֶד הָיִיתָ בְּאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם, וַיֹּצִאֲךָ יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ מִשָּׁם, בְּיָד חֲזָקָה וּבִזְרֹעַ נְטוּיָה; עַל-כֵּן, צִוְּךָ יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, לַעֲשׂוֹת, אֶת-יוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת

What do you want to discuss?

JerryL said:
Your other argument is a red herring; none of the laws were intended for the Jews to go enforce in China. It was for them to enforce wherever they actually lived.
Cool, so if you choose to live in a Jewish community, you're subject to their laws. If you choose to live in America, you're subject to their laws. If you don't like it, move away and they (America or Jews) won't stop you. What's the problem?



JerryL said:
It applies to God's people. It is God's will on how people should act and what punishments are appropriate for which crime. Further, the laws are asserted as "good":
"Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." " - Deut 4:6​


Cool, now read this...

רַק הִשָּׁמֶר לְךָ וּשְׁמֹר נַפְשְׁךָ מְאֹד, פֶּן-תִּשְׁכַּח אֶת-הַדְּבָרִים אֲשֶׁר-רָאוּ עֵינֶיךָ וּפֶן-יָסוּרוּ מִלְּבָבְךָ, כֹּל, יְמֵי חַיֶּיךָ; וְהוֹדַעְתָּם לְבָנֶיךָ, וְלִבְנֵי בָנֶיךָ

JerryL said:
The law clearly applies to non-Jews; the question you could argue is wheter it applies outside of the now non-existant ancient Isreal.


JerryL said:
Not in any translation I've ever seen... but I'm happy to discuss it.
What are you talking about??? Have you ever read the Misnah? the Gemorah?

JerryL said:
Because your assumptions destroy your credibility and occasionally make me snicker.
Still want to talk about my polyester? Or did you stop snickering and reality hit you?

JerryL said:
Argueable, but fair enough to concede.
Cool, I'll assume you drop this with the polyester.

JerryL said:
I count two people... though mine was checked, perhaps not throughly enough.
Cool, we all make mistakes, not a big deal.

JerryL said:
You wanted to dispute translations regarding the Christian Bible. The oldest manuscripts are in Hebrew and Greek respectively. If you can't discuss Greek, then you can't discuss the original manuscripts of most of the NT.
I find it funny that every verse we are talking about is in Hebrew, so let's discuss Hebrew since you don't have one thing about the NT which is respectfully written in Greek.
 

Ernesto

Member
This all reminds me of something Bill Hicks said:

"Women priests? Great! Now there are priests of both genders I don't listen to!"
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
What do you want to discuss?
Exodus 20:10

but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant * or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

Specifically, we are looking at the word "rg / Ger" (translated here as "sojourner"). Meanings include:
  • a temporary inhabitant, a newcomer lacking inherited rights
  • of foreigners in Israel, though conceded rights
It occurs about 80 times in the OT. It's root is "rwg / Guwr", meaning most commonly "to sojourn, abide, dwell in, dwell with, remain, inhabit, be a stranger, be continuing, surely".

It does *not* refer to a convert.

Cool, so if you choose to live in a Jewish community, you're subject to their laws. If you choose to live in America, you're subject to their laws. If you don't like it, move away and they (America or Jews) won't stop you. What's the problem?
Women's rights in Christianity. So let's talk about who thinks that they are, or should be, a Christian nation. (here's a clue, many of them are in America).

Cool, now read this...
I'm missing your point.

What are you talking about??? Have you ever read the Misnah? the Gemorah?
Are either used as Christian texts? Would either be appropriate to discuss Christian attitudes? If not, they are off-topic.

Are you attempting to use them to alter the translation of Ger ?

Still want to talk about my polyester? Or did you stop snickering and reality hit you?
The "forbidden combinations" does indeed match as a valid translation. Conceeded.

I find it funny that every verse we are talking about is in Hebrew, so let's discuss Hebrew since you don't have one thing about the NT which is respectfully written in Greek.
The parts we are currently discussing are OT, and therefore originall Hebrew. The point that's still wandering around is whether non-Jews are to be killed under Jewesh law as per Exodus (and Deut and Lebviticus). You've asserted that the command (specifically Exodus 20:10) applies to converts, not to foreigners. The Hebrew word in question here is Ger.

You've also argued about non-Jewesh states. This is a command by God to his followers for their government to enact. It's specifically cited in Deut 4:6 as being "wise law". This thread is about Christianity, and Christians consider themselves followers of Yehovia, and would, properly, enact this law in a Christain nation.

Do you support this law being enacted in modern Isreal? Do you support that God want's Christians to stone people working on the Sabbath, and that such a law would be "wise"?
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
JerryL said:
Exodus 20:10

but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant * or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

Specifically, we are looking at the word "rg / Ger" (translated here as "sojourner"). Meanings include:
  • a temporary inhabitant, a newcomer lacking inherited rights
  • of foreigners in Israel, though conceded rights
It occurs about 80 times in the OT. It's root is "rwg / Guwr", meaning most commonly "to sojourn, abide, dwell in, dwell with, remain, inhabit, be a stranger, be continuing, surely".

It does *not* refer to a convert.
Okay, while I don't agree with your translation, I'll use it. Basically it means someone who concedes to live by the laws of the land, in this case, the Torah. So if he breaks them, he's given a trial and if found guilty, either executed or fined depending on what he did.

JerryL said:
Women's rights in Christianity. So let's talk about who thinks that they are, or should be, a Christian nation. (here's a clue, many of them are in America).
I don't know enough about Christianity to state with any type of authority on what women rights are. My guess would be that they don't change that much from Judaism since Christians believe they are fulfilling the OT through JC.

JerryL said:
I'm missing your point.
Read three verses down.

JerryL said:
Are either used as Christian texts? Would either be appropriate to discuss Christian attitudes? If not, they are off-topic.
I don't know if they use all of the documents, but they certainly can't read just the Scripture. Moses commands them to do a Kosher slaughter, find me in the scripture where it says what a Kosher slaughter is? It's not, but the Misnah and Gemora have it, so obviously they have to use parts of them. Or atleast I would hope they use them since reading the bible without the oral law is stupid.

JerryL said:
The "forbidden combinations" does indeed match as a valid translation. Conceeded.
Cool, at least you're honest debater. Some people argue it to death because they can't concede a mistake.

JerryL said:
The parts we are currently discussing are OT, and therefore originall Hebrew. The point that's still wandering around is whether non-Jews are to be killed under Jewesh law as per Exodus (and Deut and Lebviticus). You've asserted that the command (specifically Exodus 20:10) applies to converts, not to foreigners. The Hebrew word in question here is Ger.
Well, in my opinion, it can mean convert or someone who subjects themselves knowingly to the laws. Either way in my opinion, he knows what he is doing and choosing it.

JerryL said:
You've also argued about non-Jewesh states. This is a command by God to his followers for their government to enact. It's specifically cited in Deut 4:6 as being "wise law". This thread is about Christianity, and Christians consider themselves followers of Yehovia, and would, properly, enact this law in a Christain nation.
Do they enact the other laws? Tefillin?

JerryL said:
Do you support this law being enacted in modern Isreal? Do you support that God want's Christians to stone people working on the Sabbath, and that such a law would be "wise"?
No to the first question since the courts can't be convened. The romans killed off the direct line from Moses. So do you think we should ignore one law stating that the death penalty is to ONLY be given by the proper court?? In this case 23 Ordained Rabbi's.

Yes, given the proper court precedings as outlined in the tractate Sanhedrian. However, since we can't fulfill the laws regarding the Tractate Sanhedrian, we are forbidden to punish certain crimes w/ certain punishments, aka stoning.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Okay, while I don't agree with your translation, I'll use it. Basically it means someone who concedes to live by the laws of the land, in this case, the Torah. So if he breaks them, he's given a trial and if found guilty, either executed or fined depending on what he did.
In what way did he "agree", and how does that make any difference to the issue (whether this is a law you suport upholding now)?

Okay, while I don't agree with your translation, I'll use it. Basically it means someone who concedes to live by the laws of the land, in this case, the Torah. So if he breaks them, he's given a trial and if found guilty, either executed or fined depending on what he did.
And yet your support comes from extra-biblical sources.

Why is there no penalty for a man not being a virgin?
Why is there no penalty for rape? (there are penalties for having sex with the wrong person, including sex-trhough-rape, but none for the rape itself).
Why, in one example, does God order the murder of the old, the children the babies, and women who are not virgins, but give the firgins as spoils? What right do they have?
Where, in the Bible, is the right of refusal?

The list can go on and on. The OT treats women as chattel; the NT isn't much better. The rights of women in Christianity are very limited, and certainly not on par with those of men. The few you've pointed out do not appear in Christian cannon.

I don't know if they use all of the documents, but they certainly can't read just the Scripture. Moses commands them to do a Kosher slaughter, find me in the scripture where it says what a Kosher slaughter is? It's not, but the Misnah and Gemora have it, so obviously they have to use parts of them. Or atleast I would hope they use them since reading the bible without the oral law is stupid.
You seem to be proving my point. Christians don't eat Kosher.

Obviously, this does make follwing the OT law a problem for Christians (which I believe I alluded to early in this thread; Christians cherry-pick which laws they want to follow).

Well, in my opinion, it can mean convert or someone who subjects themselves knowingly to the laws. Either way in my opinion, he knows what he is doing and choosing it.
Strong disagrees, as do the translators of every version of the Bible I've seen.

Let me throw another wrench at you; the passage explicitly applies to slaves (who don't choose much of anything).

Do they enact the other laws?
They want to, though hypocrtitially, few want to enact this one. As mentioned before, they cherry-pick.

No to the first question since the courts can't be convened. The romans killed off the direct line from Moses. So do you think we should ignore one law stating that the death penalty is to ONLY be given by the proper court?? In this case 23 Ordained Rabbi's.
The Bbile makes no such requirement. Here's a particularly poingient example as it covers everything from accusation to stoning, Deut 21:18-20
"If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. "They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.' "Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear {of it} and fear.
He's accused in front of "the elders of his city" (perhaps these are neccessairily the judges you are referring to, if so, please support); and stoned by the people. Do you have a Biblical cite that says "none of these punishments should be ubheld if there are not judges descended from Moses"?
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
JerryL said:
Do you have a Biblical cite that says "none of these punishments should be ubheld if there are not judges descended from Moses"?
I'll address the rest later, but I need to do some things. Tractate Sanhedrin

Jews view the Oral Law = to the Written Law so when I cite the Sanhedrin, I consider it equal to a biblical citeation. Here is something (A long read) which should help answer your questions.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Talmud/sanhedrin_toc.html
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
JerryL said:
In what way did he "agree", and how does that make any difference to the issue (whether this is a law you suport upholding now)?
JerryL said:
And yet your support comes from extra-biblical sources.
Without studying the Talmud, reading the bible is a waste of time. Where in the bible does it tell you how to do the Kosher slaughter that Moses commanded? It doesn't, but the Mishnah does.

JerryL said:
Why is there no penalty for a man not being a virgin?
Why is there no penalty for rape? (there are penalties for having sex with the wrong person, including sex-trhough-rape, but none for the rape itself).
Why, in one example, does God order the murder of the old, the children the babies, and women who are not virgins, but give the firgins as spoils? What right do they have?
Where, in the Bible, is the right of refusal?
Give verses for each, I'm not going to address vague points without knowing where this conversation is going to go.

JerryL said:
The list can go on and on. The OT treats women as chattel; the NT isn't much better. The rights of women in Christianity are very limited, and certainly not on par with those of men. The few you've pointed out do not appear in Christian cannon.
You're right, women get to sleep in since they are not required to go to worship. They don't have to put tefillin on, they don't have to wear a yamika, they don't have to where tzizits, all they have to do is listen to the shofar. They have it real hard. :rolleyes:

JerryL said:
You seem to be proving my point. Christians don't eat Kosher.
Cool, they don't do a lot of things that in my opinion, they should.

JerryL said:
Obviously, this does make follwing the OT law a problem for Christians (which I believe I alluded to early in this thread; Christians cherry-pick which laws they want to follow).
Cool, that's your opinion, you're free to have it.

JerryL said:
Strong disagrees, as do the translators of every version of the Bible I've seen.
If everyone agreed on the bible, everyone would be Jewish. ;)

JerryL said:
Let me throw another wrench at you; the passage explicitly applies to slaves (who don't choose much of anything).
Let me give you a modern example in today's world. Jews are not allowed to turn on the light on Shabbat. We are allowed to trick a gentile into doing it, a.k.a. slave for the purpose of discussion. If I asked my slave/gentile to do something for me on Shabbat it would be as if he was doing it for me, so the sin is on me. If I trick him into doing it for me, but he thinks he does it for himself, then the sin is on him. For example, if I say, hey can check the table in there for the book by this rabbi, and he goes in and can't see the room because there is no light, he turns it on so he can see better, he didn't turn it on for me, he turned it on so he could find a book.

JerryL said:
They want to, though hypocrtitially, few want to enact this one. As mentioned before, they cherry-pick.
Relax, they can do what they want.





JerryL said:
The Bbile makes no such requirement. Here's a particularly poingient example as it covers everything from accusation to stoning, Deut 21:18-20
"If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. "They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.' "Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear {of it} and fear.




He's accused in front of "the elders of his city" (perhaps these are neccessairily the judges you are referring to, if so, please support); and stoned by the people. Do you have a Biblical cite that says "none of these punishments should be ubheld if there are not judges descended from Moses"?
Read above message.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Without studying the Talmud, reading the bible is a waste of time. Where in the bible does it tell you how to do the Kosher slaughter that Moses commanded? It doesn't, but the Mishnah does.
Not a Christian-held position, ergo not applicable to this discussion.

Give verses for each, I'm not going to address vague points without knowing where this conversation is going to go.
In the first two cases I'm citing a *lack* of a rule against. Which verse lacks these rules? Um... all of them.

Where did God orfer genocide except for the vigrin girls? Try Numbers 31:17
"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

Let me give you a modern example in today's world. Jews are not allowed to turn on the light on Shabbat. We are allowed to trick a gentile into doing it, a.k.a. slave for the purpose of discussion. If I asked my slave/gentile to do something for me on Shabbat it would be as if he was doing it for me, so the sin is on me. If I trick him into doing it for me, but he thinks he does it for himself, then the sin is on him. For example, if I say, hey can check the table in there for the book by this rabbi, and he goes in and can't see the room because there is no light, he turns it on so he can see better, he didn't turn it on for me, he turned it on so he could find a book.
I've known few Jews who follow a "don't work" requirement except during events like Shiva... not that I doubt such fundamentalists are out there (I assume I won't see any posts written by you on the Sabbath?).

The Bible would seem clear that you have tricked someone into a sin and abomination by God, for which he should rightly be stoned to death.

Read above message.
Which one?
 
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