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Isn't Ignorance Bliss?

Aqualung

Tasty
robtex said:
Therein lies the complication as presented by this thread. Understand that knowing or assessing that murdering lying and stealing is wrong is not the formula for eternal salvation in Christianty. Accepting Jesus as your savior is.
Which is where the fact that Jesus preached to the dead comes in. You will have a chance to accept Jesus as your savior. That's a definite. But that doesn't mean that you can just live however you want here, and purposefully avoid learning anything about him, because that would be denying the holy ghost, a sin that is not forgivable.

robtex said:
What Meesheltx is postulating is that if God would accept those into heaven who were not afforded the opportunity to accept christ due to ignorance of his existance wouldn't it be better not to inform them and give them a better chance to view the pearly gates by the grace of God due to non-exposure to christianity than risk them not getting the message and getting barbqued for eternity?
And what I'm saying is that there is no way that some one will just not here about christ. They will hear about him, either in this life or in the spirit prison. Then you will be judged both on whether or not you accepted Jesus, but also on how well you did living without a knowledge of him.

robtex said:
Realize that millions of people will go through life never hearing of christianty for reasons such as

1) early deaths
2) countires politics
3) countries religion that is other than christianty and not apt to allow christanity in
4) mental retardating to a capacity that is substandard to learning an organized religion
Thta's right. They will go through life without hearing these things. They will hear them after death.

robtex said:
If these people were to say, not be punished for the circumstances, and God was gracious to let those groups of ignorance into the eternal salvation of heaven than why run the risk of propogating christianity knowing non-acceptance due to things like

a) philosophical perspective
b) lack of personal revleation
c) contestment with current religious values
d) time frame too short for conversion before death

which would and could lead to eternal damnation despite the purity of the life that the indivdual led?
Because everybody will hear.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
robtex said:
Therein lies the complication as presented by this thread. Understand that knowing or assessing that murdering lying and stealing is wrong is not the formula for eternal salvation in Christianty.
It was never asserted thus. The Light of Christ gives every man an elemental understanding of right and wrong, but salvation is wrought through the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel - and all must abide by them to find salvation.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Aqualung said:
And what I'm saying is that there is no way that some one will just not here about christ. They will hear about him, either in this life or in the spirit prison. Then you will be judged both on whether or not you accepted Jesus, but also on how well you did living without a knowledge of him.
Where are you getting the spirt prision theory from ?
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
It has been an on-going debate amongst my friends and I what happens to those people who have never heard of Jesus...how can they be saved? I have found that most people believe either that there is an exception for those people and they will go to heaven anyway OR they will go to hell and that is why missionaries exist...to make sure everybody has a chance. Well, giving God the benefit of the doubt, I would assume that there would be an exception for these people and they don't HAVE to except Jesus as their savior and yadda yadda yadda. But if that is the case, shouldn't we just STOP spreading the word? Wouldn't that result in getting more people into heaven? Or would that be wrong since it is the duty of a Christian to spread the word? If thats the case....then I don't understand why that is the duty of a Christian...it seems kinda odd and unnecessary.
That is not the case. The Bible clearly says that you MUST believe and be baptized to obtain eternal life. Why would you think God would make an exception? And if he did, wouldn't he have SAID there was to be an exception? And Meesheltx brings up a very good point... more people would get to Heaven if we just stopped telling people about the Word...if, indeed, you go to Heaven if you have never heard the word.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Christiangirl0909 said:
That is not the case. The Bible clearly says that you MUST believe and be baptized to obtain eternal life. Why would you think God would make an exception? And if he did, wouldn't he have SAID there was to be an exception? And Meesheltx brings up a very good point... more people would get to Heaven if we just stopped telling people about the Word...if, indeed, you go to Heaven if you have never heard the word.
I agree with your statement, but I know that we disagree on the details of how it happens.

Why does god hate everyone who has never heard of Christ in this life and what did they do to earn this hate? What makes you so much luckier than they were?
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
Why does god hate everyone who has never heard of Christ and what did they do to earn this hate? What makes you so much luckier than they were?
You answer my questions first. :)

Quite frankly, I don't know all they "whys" and "what ifs". But I'm willing to admit that. All I know is what is in the Bible. And the Bible says you MUST believe and be baptized.

And just to clue you in, God doesn't hate anyone.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
robtex said:
Where are you getting the spirt prision theory from ?
See post 16.

ChristianGirl0909 said:
That is not the case. The Bible clearly says that you MUST believe and be baptized to obtain eternal life. Why would you think God would make an exception? And if he did, wouldn't he have SAID there was to be an exception? And Meesheltx brings up a very good point... more people would get to Heaven if we just stopped telling people about the Word...if, indeed, you go to Heaven if you have never heard the word.
This is simply not true, also. As I have said many, many times before, Jesus went to the spirit world to teach the gospel. No matter whether you hear it when you are living, you will hear the gospel. And you will have the opportunity to get baptised as well, through baptisms for the dead. Paul showed us that the early church baptised for the dead in 1 Cor. 15:29; "Else what shall they do which are baptized for te dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for te dead?" Thus, everybody will have the chance to hear of the gospel, accept it, and then accpet a baptism, either by being baptised themselves, or by accepting a baptism someone did for them.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Christiangirl0909 said:
You answer my questions first. :)

Quite frankly, I don't know all they "whys" and "what ifs". But I'm willing to admit that. All I know is what is in the Bible. And the Bible says you MUST believe and be baptized.

And just to clue you in, God doesn't hate anyone.
I agree that God doesn't hate anyone, but he sure plays favorites according to some religious beliefs. :)

I also agree that everyone must be baptized and accept Christ as their savior in order to be exalted and return to God. I just don't believe that it has to happen in this life.
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
Meesheltx said:
In this after-death opportunity to know Jesus...wouldn't the people believe more because it was shown to them rather than on faith? ...that would throw free will out the window, wouldn't it? I have a feeling thats just one of those things we as humans just can't know...and we will find out the many mysteries of God when we die?
The problem, fellow Texan, is that you are attempting to interject logic into a religious debate. Religion tends to fall apart the more you apply logic to it. You will find yourself in one of two camps if you follow this need to apply logic and common sense to religion. 1. You will become a doubter, Athiest, Agnostic, etc. . . or 2. You will sacrifice intellectual honesty and fall back on the old saw of "well, we human's can't understand God".

Good luck with that problem. I have tried and tried to fall into the second camp, but I have just not been able to turn off the part of my brain that forces me to have things make logical sense.

B.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Christiangirl0909 said:
That is not the case. The Bible clearly says that you MUST believe and be baptized to obtain eternal life. Why would you think God would make an exception? And if he did, wouldn't he have SAID there was to be an exception? And Meesheltx brings up a very good point... more people would get to Heaven if we just stopped telling people about the Word...if, indeed, you go to Heaven if you have never heard the word.
So, with great respect, let us imagine a tribe of natives living in a South American forrest, who have had no knowledge of Jesus Christ; one dies, according to you, would he be punished for not knowing about Jesus Christ ?

Sounds kind of hard for a God who is so loving and forgiving, doesn't it ?
 

Aqualung

Tasty
michel said:
So, with great respect, let us imagine a tribe of natives living in a South American forrest, who have had no knowledge of Jesus Christ; one dies, according to you, would he be punished for not knowing about Jesus Christ ?

Sounds kind of hard for a God who is so loving and forgiving, doesn't it ?
That's why Jesus took the time to preach to the spirits in prison, and why latter-day saints do so much genealogy and baptisms for the dead.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Aqualung said:
That's why Jesus took the time to preach to the spirits in prison, and why latter-day saints do so much genealogy and baptisms for the dead.
I take it that you believe the 'prison' mentioned in Peter to be a 'permanent' secton of hades, I take it then ?
 

Aqualung

Tasty
michel said:
I take it that you believe the 'prison' mentioned in Peter to be a 'permanent' secton of hades, I take it then ?
what do you mean by permant? that people will permanently be there, or that it still exists?
 

Aqualung

Tasty
michel said:
That it still exists.
Yes, I beleive it still exists, and it still takes in the souls of those who have never heard of Jesus, or who rejected him in their life time.
 

Jensen

Active Member
It would seem to me that the ignorant that never heard of Jesus or the laws of God, wouldn't be sinning since to sin is to break the laws of God, and they can't break laws they don't know about. So would not be held accountable, or be punished in the way that unrepended that do have that knowledge would be, don't you think?

Jensen
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Jensen said:
It would seem to me that the ignorant that never heard of Jesus or the laws of God, wouldn't be sinning since to sin is to break the laws of God, and they can't break laws they don't know about. So would not be held accountable, or be punished in the way that unrepended that do have that knowledge would be, don't you think?

Jensen
Well, that was the point of the thread. Keep everybody ignorant, so nobody sins. Except I think you're still sinning if you go against what your concience says is right.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Fatmop said:
Please point me to the particular verses in the Bible that allowed you to draw this conclusion.
1 Peter 4:6 speaks of Christ's visit to the Spirit Prison:

"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

1 Peter 3:18-19 also describes this visit:

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison..."

And in 1 Corinthians 15:29, Paul uses the practice of baptism for the dead as an arguement for the reality of the resurrection of the dead:

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

Since those who had never had a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ during their lifetimes were waiting in the Spirit Prison for the opportunity to do so, and since there is no indication whatsover in the Bible that the Spirit Prison has since ceased to exist, I think it is entirely logical to assume that it is still in existence and that those who hear the gospel there will have the opportunity to accept the Savior's Atonement prior to their resurrections and the Final Judgment. And since Jesus said that without baptism, one cannot be saved, proxy baptisms done by the living will enable them to receive that ordinance.
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
This occured to me as a little kid, maybe aged 9 or 10. I was sitting in church, being told I was going to Hell because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and all that sort of fun stuff.

The preacher was discussing how people who had never heard of God, such as African pigmies, would go to heaven cause they didn't know any better. But people who knew of God and died with a sin they had not asked forgiveness for, would go to Hell.

I immediately felt ripped off. These naked pigmies can run around doing whatever they want. They get to sleep in on Sunday mornings, they don't have to listen to this boring crap every Sunday morning, Sunday evening and Wednesday night, and they are guaranteed to get into heaven, while I sit here suffering through all this, only to probably slip and say a curse word as I am dying? Nice. I jump through these impossible hoops. Then I slip on my deathbed and go to Hell anyways.

I think that perhaps that was a turning point for me. It occured to me even at a young age, that there were some serious holes in this religion thing. It was our duty to go out and convert as many people as possible, but by doing so we are ensuring that they risk going to Hell. If they don't hear about the gospel, they get in for sure regardless of their activities, but if we tell them about the gospel, then they risk going to Hell if they don't live up to what amounted to me to be an impossible standard. How are we doing them any favors by spreading the word?

A light came on for me, and I have been desperately trying to put it out ever since. Problem is, the more I look into this stuff the more convinced I am that I was right when I had that epiphany at age 9 or 10. I wished from that day forward, that if the preacher was right, that I had never been exposed to this stuff, so I could go to heaven for sure.

I remember praying literally 2 or 3 times per hour asking forgiveness for any sins I might have committed without meaning to, fearing I might be struck down with an unforgiven sin on my heart. Then a couple years later, I hit puberty and had so many impure thoughts that it was quite impossible to begin to keep up with all my sins by praying. It was about that time that I came to the conclusion that I was probably going to Hell anyways cause I couldn't possibly expect to die while praying, so why bother at all?

Few years after that, while continuing my search I became convinced beyond any doubt that this whole religious thing was very subjective, and was not for me. If I am wrong, then I guess I am going to Hell. But seems to me, even if I did my best, I would probably go to Hell anyways, so why burden myself with this yoke, when all the evidence I can come up with is that the whole thing is a crock anyways?

So, that was a long way around the barn to say. . . yes, ignorance, in this respect would be bliss.

B.
 
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