What's happening to the U.S.A.

I'm a christian and i started this thread to get peoples views on why America seems to be leading toward destruction. I recently recieved this email and it has encouraged me to wonder about some other opinions people might have. The email is the following:

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).


Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.


And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"


In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.


Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem,(Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.


Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.


Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."



This seemed to make a good point. Since we have pushed God away seems things have became evil in America. By the way I do not believe God created evil, evil is just the abscence of God, much like light and darkness.

Anyone agree or disagree or any other opinions.

i don't know if this is the cause of the bible being taken out of schools (i'm not old enough to know), but i definetely know what you mean. there is an increasing amount of immorality in America, kids doing drugs and having sex at earlier and earlier ages, people killing each other. they dont know right from wrong anymore. I think it is because nobody teaches them morality anymore. I dont necessaily think the bible should be taught in public schools, but some kind of morality should.

Disagree,

First I would like to clear up that secularists (like me) are not trying to get God out of school. Totally false. I'm trying to get God off of the Pledge, P.A. systems, preachings, etc. done by school personnell.

For example, I do not support the principal coming on and giving a sermon.

I do however support children praying in school, talking about their faith in school, expressing their opinion of faith in school, etc.

Out of government, well, again, I do not support such things as swearing in when you go to court, God on money, etc, but I do support someone choosing a particular opinion on faith. If Pres. Bush wants Gay Marriage to be illegal because it's not natural (as pertaining to the Bible), then that's fine, as long as he clearly states that he is against it for that reason.

I think when you elect someone, you elect that person (including their religion, education, among other things), and not that persons political beliefs.

TheJedi said:

i don't know if this is the cause of the bible being taken out of schools (i'm not old enough to know), but i definetely know what you mean. there is an increasing amount of immorality in America, kids doing drugs and having sex at earlier and earlier ages, people killing each other. they dont know right from wrong anymore. I think it is because nobody teaches them morality anymore. I dont necessaily think the bible should be taught in public schools, but some kind of morality should.

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Exactly, morality isn't taught much.

People just need to learn that we're all humans, and it can only get better if you work together.

preacherman said:

"I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.


And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"


In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.


Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem,(Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.


Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.


Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

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It is just as likely that god is on the terrorists side and the reason 9-11 happened is because god wanted it to happen.

I think America is as religious as it's ever been. Religion was never removed from schools or government, although official, overt Christian practices were censored so that people of other faiths would not feel threatened or uncomfortable. Remember, the Bible makes it clear that prayer and overt displays of religiosity are not to be displayed in public, but performed privately, by individuals.

Cf: Matthew 6:4-6.

What of the wealth of possibility in the outside sense of conversion. In the U.S.A. the use of the private means of transporatation and communication shall OVERCOME.

Why mention Madeleine Murray O'Hare's death? What relevance does it have to the issue being discussed, unless the person is inferring that there's some connection with wanting the Lord's Prayer to be out of the schools and being murdered?

Prayer is still allowed in schools. The Bible is still allowed in schools. If I'd tried to wear my pentacle in school, however, I would have been ostrasized and ridiculed, and that would've been just the teachers. The students would have been even more merciless. If you're looking for faiths that have been not been allowed in school, Christianity is not the place to start.

Which is not that I think anyone should be made to feel less, no matter what their faith. (Or choice to have none.) For me, that's why it's necessary that either all faiths be allowed in the classroom, or none at all. Childhood is a tough enough time for most people- we don't need to add to it by having them worry about if their religion will be insulted in the place where they're supposed to be learning.

Death is the lasr resort punishment from God so maybe that is the reason

I thought hell was the lasr resort punishment from God. Does that stand to reason?

What's happening to the USA? Same things that happen to every other country.

once again I find myself asking... if a hurricane is god being angry with us, is a sunny day his reward for us? What about a partly-sunny day? Is he undecied if we are good or bad?

You'll notice god hit the bible belt with these two terrible storms... hmmm....perhaps god disagrees with the attempts as establishing a theocracy in America?

wa:do

Preacherman said:

I'm a christian and i started this thread to get peoples views on why America seems to be leading toward destruction. I recently recieved this email and it has encouraged me to wonder about some other opinions people might have.

Since we have pushed God away seems things have became evil in America. By the way I do not believe God created evil, evil is just the abscence of God, much like light and darkness.

Anyone agree or disagree or any other opinions.

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Before I agree or disagree with your couched personalized perception (ie, That things "seem" to indicate certain "somethings" gone awry), it would be necessary for you to qualify what "things" you deem to have "become evil".

Specifically.

True enough that "we" (in the U.S.) have "pushed God away" (most notably the god of Christians, Jews, and Muslims), and that the fastest growing group of "believers" are, in fact, "non-adherents" (of any specified organized religion), and that the number of self-professed Christian adherents will actually constitute a minority religious representation (if current trends hold) by mid-21st century.

It is a common claim by Christian Evangelicals (and other religious fundamentalists) that our nation is experiencing "moral decline" and ever increasing "evil" tendencies, somehow imperiled towards a doom of inevitable divine disfavor and retribution.

OK...but by what measure or standards are these claims predicated? What "issues" are definitive indicators of this alleged decline, and what is the "starting point" of this revealing/indicative measure?

Perhaps it is averaged longevity/life-expectancy? It can't be that...it's been steadily increasing.
Maybe it's incidence of violent crimes and homicides? Nope. Since those statistics have been recorded, such rates are equal to or less than any other time in our civic history.
Could it be teen pregnancies? Nope, they've also experienced steady decrease.
How about teen crime? Nope, same as above.
How about school violence? Nope. Also, on the decrease.
Maybe abortion rates? Hmmm...consistently decreasing.
Civil liberties? Since the 1960's, we've assured: minority voting rights; anti-discrimination laws predicated upon gender, creed, or national origin; anti-segregation laws; Miranda; equal pay for equal work; child-protection laws; constitutional rights to personal privacy, and much more. Ascent, or decline?
Divorce rates? While true that divorce rates are abysmal, the highest incidences of divorce are amongst self-professed Evangelical Christians. Hmmm.
Women entering institutions of higher learning? Um..at an all-time high.

So again, I ask, by what measure or means are the claims of destruction and evil based, and compared to what measured or established standard?

I'm curious. When was America at it's peak of morality?
When we put people in stocks for blasphemy, or summarily burned "witches"?
When slavery was legal?
When we slaughtered native-americans in the name of divine providence?
When lynchings and cross-burnings were ignored, or even tacitly approved?
When we prohibited women and minorities the right to vote?
When we imprisoned American citizens merely upon their hereditary national origin?
When we segregated schools, the armed forces, and access to public facilities?
When fear of communism gripped the nation, and permitted government-sanctioned persecution of it's own citizens for espousing unpopular views/ideologies?

Tell me please, just when were those "pre-decline, good ole' days" of morality and righteous justice...so that we may have a salient reference point of comparison for applicable measures today?

As far as I can determine, it's been the steady and inexorable decline of the influence of Christian theology (and it's pious adherents) that has actually allowed and promoted a more decent, morally "good", just, and "civilized" society than at any other time in our recorded national history.

I'd be interested in hearing your compelling examples that illustrate a "decline" towards "destruction" and "evil" that surpass recorded historical examples and contemporary measurable statistics.

Really, I would.

Otherwise, I am but left to conclude that such inferred (and unsubstantiated) claims are fallaciously predicated upon: Failure to Elucidate; (inferred) Post Hoc; Exclusion (or "Cherry-picking"); Unrepresentative Sample; Hasty Generalization; Slothful Induction; Appeal to Popularity; and more...

Appearances can be deceiving, and you don't have to believe (or accept) everything you hear from doom and gloom Dispensationalists and Pretribulationists. The "End" is always near...and "signs" have always been pointed to as "proof" that it is so...

...it's just that more and more folks are literate today than in years past, and can read the "signs" for themselves without the "aid" of preachers, evangelists, or soothsayers. Remember...every prediction of "the end of the world"...EVERY ONE to date, has been WRONG.

[PS. You're even invited to cite historical examples of attributable (by your perception) divine punishment/retribution (earthquakes, hurricanes, fires, floods, acts of war) upon the U.S. and it's "evil", declining tendencies. I look forward to your accountings of contemporary "evidence" (by property destruction, frequency of incidence, or numerical death toll) that would lead one to conclude that your God is more irritated at America's moral decline today, than in days past.]

painted wolf said:

once again I find myself asking... if a hurricane is god being angry with us, is a sunny day his reward for us? What about a partly-sunny day? Is he undecied if we are good or bad?

You'll notice god hit the bible belt with these two terrible storms... hmmm....perhaps god disagrees with the attempts as establishing a theocracy in America?

wa:do

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hehe - damn good points, as always P.W - I always enjoy your posts. I think what you say goesd quite a way to demonstrate my belief (by inferrence) that God has nothing to do with disasters and the sun shine etc.

He just seems to bew a good 'fall-guy' for anything that happens that we don't like.

S2a said:

Perhaps it is averaged longevity/life-expectancy? It can't be that...it's been steadily increasing.
Maybe it's incidence of violent crimes and homicides? Nope. Since those statistics have been recorded, such rates are equal to or less than any other time in our civic history.
Could it be teen pregnancies? Nope, they've also experienced steady decrease.
How about teen crime? Nope, same as above.
How about school violence? Nope. Also, on the decrease.
Maybe abortion rates? Hmmm...consistently decreasing.
Civil liberties? Since the 1960's, we've assured: minority voting rights; anti-discrimination laws predicated upon gender, creed, or national origin; anti-segregation laws; Miranda; equal pay for equal work; child-protection laws; constitutional rights to personal privacy, and much more. Ascent, or decline?
Divorce rates? While true that divorce rates are abysmal, the highest incidences of divorce are amongst self-professed Evangelical Christians. Hmmm.
Women entering institutions of higher learning? Um..at an all-time high.

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All good points, s2a - which seems to comfirm my belief that 'joe public' is quick enough to criticize, but reluctant to count his blessings.

Of course, with any innovation any invention, progress comes the ability to do harm using that new ability (as well as the more positive aspects) - but why oh why do we always have to focus on the harmful effects ?

I once confronted an elderly chap here, in England, who was bemoaning his fate in this 'New dreadful society' - and how he wished he could be able to go back to 'the good old days'. When we got into the cost of living as a percentage of earnings, he was quick to realize that he was in fact better off now than when he was in his twenties.

Of course, to be fair, he didn't have a T.V to tell him he needed brand-named trainers, the latest T.V technology, the best laptop......................but that is, of course, the flip side of the 'good bits' of progress - if one chooses to become a 'follower of fashion' (sorry, my mind went back to the 1960's 'The kinks' song), then that is a matter of choice.

I have this to say to the sacaremongers - go and visit third world countries (and some second world ones), compare them to what you have; you might stop grumbling.

s2a, well stated. :clap

I think life is great. I think society, in general is doing well, I'm happy with the economy, with social equity, with the levels of crime and so on. I think our education system sucks and I think our tax system sucks and I think "Family" and "community" are in a poor state, but other than that, people are just worry worts. I say, be thankful for what you got. If you think kids are scrogging and smoking and drinking too soon, well, BE A PARENT and stop your kids from doing it. If you think schools sucks, go get yourself a degree and become a teacher. You think people aren't moral enough? Go to your church, your mosque or temple, your coven, your family and friends and SET A BETTER EXAMPLE! Hurmph. Rant over.

I think the whole Idea that God Punishes people or nations, is very old Testament
and abhorent to the spirit and love of Jesus.

Any problems a country faces is either man's doing or a natural occurance that man must provide for.

Neither America no any other country is suffering a, sort of witch hunt by God.


Terry__________________________-
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

Terrywoodenpic said:

I think the whole Idea that God Punishes people or nations, is very old Testament
and abhorent to the spirit and love of Jesus.

Any problems a country faces is either man's doing or a natural occurance that man must provide for.

Neither America no any other country is suffering a, sort of witch hunt by God.


Terry__________________________-
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

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i don't think that can be repeated too often - it is a message that somehow becomes 'lost' in the eyes of the world. fruballworthy!