Who is the true church?

Merlin said:

Truly, that is the most remarkable thing I have heard on these forums. I do not doubt what you have said, I believe you. However, my experience of worshipping in any church I can find, is that the most restrictive communions are the Roman Catholic. And certainly the majority I have had any discussions with believe absolutely that only Roman Catholics go to heaven.

are there any other Roman Catholics in this forum who believe that lots of different denominations and religions will be joining them in heaven? so it is completely irrelevant whether people are Roman Catholic, Anglican, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Methodist, or indeed anything.

If this is what the Roman Catholic church believes, I think it makes them unique.

Click to expand...

Merlin,

I know a lot of Catholics who believe as Scott does. I would say that, in my own experience, they are far more willing to accept the possibility that people beloning to denominations other than their own will go to heaven. At the other end of the scale would be the Baptists. (Again, I stress that this is based on my own experience.)

Merlin said:

fair question. What do LDS publications teach about the period before Joseph Smith?

Click to expand...

There were no LDS before Joseph Smith. JS founded that religion. It would be kind of like asking, "what did the christians teach before christ was born." Before christ was born, they were jews, not christians. Before Joseph Smith came around there was no such thing as an LDS.

Aqualung said:

Then why do JWs insist the time is near? For all they know, God has granted that someone, somewhere, would live for a really, really long time.

Click to expand...

because every thing fits ,the signs that jesus left us, and the chronology fits as well as the prophecies about Jesus coming into kingdom power in the heavens in 1914, the signs Jesus left us are identifying marks of the last days ,one of the signs would be ridiculars rejecting proof of the last days 2;peter 3;3-4
For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: "Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.....also taking no note of the impending danger ...matthew 24; 39

and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.....yes Jesus presence in kingdom power has been happening since 1914 .... and it is like noahs day in that noone believed noah when he said that there was going to be a flood but were they right to not listen to noah , i think we all know the answer to that, the bible tells us that noah was a preacher of rightousness for 40 years so he was warning the people to get into the place of safety it must have seemed that noah was crazy to say there was going to be a world wide flood , but it seems that noahs obedience to Gods instructions saved his life ,even if others around him thought he was crazy after all he had been saying this for years now thats food for thought.

dan said:

So what do JW publications teach about 1914 before that date actually came and went?

Click to expand...

they knew from bible chronology that 1914 was a very important date sometimes it is not the time for Jehovah God to reveal things so we have to wait for the understanding to be revealed,
"And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant

it was later on in the 1930s when it was clearly revealed that not all people would be going to heaven, but only a small flock,(144,000)
And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads...revelation 14;1

and the other sheep in john 10;16 would be inheritng the earth, the understanding becomes clearer as we gain new understanding in these last days ,the 1914 date is the time for Jesus to be made king of Gods heavenly kingdom . so yes this date has gone ,but jesus was crowned right on time inline with prophecy and bible chronology and his presence is being felt because the signs he left us to indicate that he was in power are coming true .

The negative ego teaches you must have a minister to interpret the Bible and the teachings for you, and you must go to church! Spirit teaches that GOD lives within your own heart, and that many ministers are just following the dogma of the Church, and that the Holy Spirit or “Still small voice within” will help you interpret scripture if you let it. It also teaches that the true church or temple is the altar of one’s own heart!

So the main work of the Planetary Christ is to help others become a Planetary Christ! Jesus said to the scribe or channel of the book A Course in Miracles, “this is my true Church, helping your Brothers and Sisters”! All Masters of all religions and spiritual paths help their students to become the Christ, for Christ is not in truth a Christian term, it is a living presence which you can call by any name you want. I am choosing to call the second aspect of the Trinity the Christ, but if you prefer Vishnu or any other name to depict the perfected blue print and pattern and living being that is fine.

Merlin said:

I hate to rain on your parade, but the fastest-growing religion in the world at the moment is Islam. (No I am not a Muslim). I am just quoting statistics.

So maybe it is true that there is a growing belief in YHWH(whatever you choose to call him), but not necessarily the Christian Bible, and certainly not an individual sect's Bible

Click to expand...

why do you think that the true religion will be the largest i think the bible says it will not be that way in fact i think it tells us that it will be a narrow road
In his famous Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." (Matthew 7:13, 14) The Bible explicitly states that there is "one faith." (Ephesians 4:5) Clearly, many who are on the "broad" road have a religion. But they do not have the "one faith." Since there is only one true form of worship, those who desire to find that true faith will have to seek it out

Aqualung said:

There were no LDS before Joseph Smith. JS founded that religion. It would be kind of like asking, "what did the christians teach before christ was born." Before christ was born, they were jews, not christians. Before Joseph Smith came around there was no such thing as an LDS.

Click to expand...

Thank you. What year was that?

may said:

they knew from bible chronology that 1914 was a very important date .

Click to expand...

Who are 'they'

Katzpur said:

Merlin,

I know a lot of Catholics who believe as Scott does. I would say that, in my own experience, they are far more willing to accept the possibility that people beloning to denominations other than their own will go to heaven. At the other end of the scale would be the Baptists. (Again, I stress that this is based on my own experience.)

Click to expand...

Fair enough, it is the opposite of my experience. I do meet regularly with some very very nice Roman Catholic people (including a Roman Catholic monk), and my wife and I (who are not Catholics) attend a three-day retreat in this monastery once every year. That is a wonderful experience. There is no doubt that they have an absolute belief that they are the one and only true church. Who are we to say they are wrong?

Merlin said:

Truly, that is the most remarkable thing I have heard on these forums. I do not doubt what you have said, I believe you. However, my experience of worshipping in any church I can find, is that the most restrictive communions are the Roman Catholic. And certainly the majority I have had any discussions with believe absolutely that only Roman Catholics go to heaven.

are there any other Roman Catholics in this forum who believe that lots of different denominations and religions will be joining them in heaven? so it is completely irrelevant whether people are Roman Catholic, Anglican, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Methodist, or indeed anything.

If this is what the Roman Catholic church believes, I think it makes them unique.

Click to expand...

Just to be clear, I am not giving my opinion on this topic... I am a Catechism teacher and am using official RCC teachings on this subject. I am sorry that you have encountered in the past RCatholics who are uneducated about this... but I can assure you that the post-Vatican II Church most certainly does not believe only RC's will be in heaven.
If you'd like to educate yourself more on this subject, please read the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium ... specifically #'s 15 and 16.

Katzpur said:

Yes, you could say that. As I said in my prior post, Jesus said, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: noman cometh unto the Father, but by me." We believe, like other Christians, that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can be reconciled to God. But, you need to remember that in the Spirit World (known in the scriptures as both "Paradise" and "Prison"), most of the stumbling blocks to spiritual knowledge and growth that exist on this earth will be taken away. The cultural elements that exist in so many predominantly non-Christian countries today will no longer exist and the Gospel of Jesus Christ may be more easily received that it could be today (in Iraq, for instance).

Click to expand...

I think the first comment is that you cannot prove a point about Jesus (to the general world) by quoting new Testament, any more than you would accept proof about Islam by my quoting the Koran.

Secondly, if the Koran teachings give people a righteous and devout life, bringing them closer to God (the same God that LDS pray to), do you really believe God would care that they have got to him directly rather than via Jesus.

The Bible teaches that Christ is our only advocate with the Father. This is what we believe. We deny no one the right to worship however they wish, but this is how we worship.

Jesus said “Helping my brothers and sisters is my true church.”

Merlin said:

Who are 'they'

Click to expand...

those ones who wanted to get an accurate understanding of the bible , they were bible students who had a keen desire to keep on the watch rather than fall asleep to the prophecies in the bible.

Merlin said:

Thank you. What year was that?

Click to expand...

The Church was organized on April 6, 1830 in Fayette, New York.

Merlin said:

I think the first comment is that you cannot prove a point about Jesus (to the general world) by quoting new Testament, any more than you would accept proof about Islam by my quoting the Koran.

Click to expand...

Obviously. But I wasn't trying to prove a point about Jesus to the general world. I was trying to explain our belief regarding the role of Jesus Christ. For that same reason, I almost never quote from the Book of Mormon when trying to "prove a point" to other Christians.

Secondly, if the Koran teachings give people a righteous and devout life, bringing them closer to God (the same God that LDS pray to), do you really believe God would care that they have got to him directly rather than via Jesus.

Click to expand...

Well, I think I've already answered that one. I've stated the LDS perspective on other world religions and I personally find it to be about as all-inclusive as it could possibly be without rejecting what the Bible says about Jesus Christ. Regardless of what good Muhammad may have done (and it's not my intention to say that he was not, to some degree, inspired), the fact remains that it would be quite difficult for anyone to be a Christian without recognizing Jesus Christ as the sole means by which humanity might be reconciled to God. Since I believe that He was unique among all men who have ever lived as being the wholly-divine Son of God and that no one else was in the position to have been able to atone for the sins of all mankind. That said, I believe that God loves all of His children equally. He is just as receptive to the faith and prayers of a devout Muslim as He is to mine.

Merlin said:

Fair enough, it is the opposite of my experience. I do meet regularly with some very very nice Roman Catholic people (including a Roman Catholic monk), and my wife and I (who are not Catholics) attend a three-day retreat in this monastery once every year. That is a wonderful experience. There is no doubt that they have an absolute belief that they are the one and only true church. Who are we to say they are wrong?

Click to expand...

Merlin, you appear to be equating the belief in the existence of a "one and only true Church" with the belief that only members of that Church will go to heaven. I believe that my Church alone contains the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, but I've already explained that I don't think that one must be a member of my Church to go to heaven. Have you ever actually asked one of these very nice Roman Catholic people if they believe you are destined to go to hell?

Katzpur said:

Merlin, you appear to be equating the belief in the existence of a "one and only true Church" with the belief that only members of that Church will go to heaven. I believe that my Church alone contains the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, but I've already explained that I don't think that one must be a member of my Church to go to heaven. Have you ever actually asked one of these very nice Roman Catholic people if they believe you are destined to go to hell?

Click to expand...

I will tell you a true story to answer your question.

We were attending a garden party at the house of my very old friend who is a practising Roman Catholic. there were about 80 people there, including his local Catholic priest. The priest had brought his old housekeeper who was in her 70s.

We were sitting in the sunshine chatting generally to the priest and his housekeeper, when unexpectedly she asked if my wife and I were Catholic. When I answered that we were not, she reached across and put her hand on my arm, looked sympathetically into my eyes, and said "Oh you poor things".

QED

Merlin said:

I will tell you a true story to answer your question.

We were attending a garden party at the house of my very old friend who is a practising Roman Catholic. there were about 80 people there, including his local Catholic priest. The priest had brought his old housekeeper who was in her 70s.

We were sitting in the sunshine chatting generally to the priest and his housekeeper, when unexpectedly she asked if my wife and I were Catholic. When I answered that we were not, she reached across and put her hand on my arm, looked sympathetically into my eyes, and said "Oh you poor things".

QED

Click to expand...

Well, I guess you answered my question! Won't she be surprised when she spots you in heaven?

There is really no church, why because it is written:



23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. 24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

Acts 17:23-25

so if you go to churches it would mean that you have not really know God, who is the god that made everything?

This is what the LORD says:
"Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
Where is the house you will build for me?
Where will my resting place be?
Isaiah 66:1

So, to really know the God whom you seek you have to know his Name, how important is the Name of God? Why do we have to know His Name?

31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
Joel 2:31

This will happen and who will be saved?

And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the LORD has said,
among the survivors
whom the LORD calls.
Joel 2:32

Those who will call on the Name of God. Is it true that by calling on the Name of God, he will save us?

1 Save me, O God, by your name;
vindicate me by your might.
2 Hear my prayer, O God;
listen to the words of my mouth.

Psalm 54:1-2

May these passages help you to understand better, if you know God's Name, is there a need for you to go to churches? Whenever and wherever you are you can call on His Name.

Lastly, who are the new people of God?

This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "
Zech 13:9

They are the new people of God, those who will call on His Name, will all the people will know His Name?

9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.
Zech 14:9

This will happen in an appointed time.

Thank you for the opportunity to post my comments.