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2000 yrs old men?

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
You're assuming, of course, that Jesus actually made the "prophesy."

So, are you saying that after Jesus left, the Bible which was supposed to have the words of God and be a guidance to humanity, was also not true? In this case, what was left for people to know the true from false? It is as if to say, God is so powerless as neither His words was properly recorded, neither His son stayed, which in my view cannot be the case. Then what was the point Jesus even came?

The meaning of these verses depends on who wrote these verses and when.

Yes, and if those verses are inspired by God, then their meaning is whatever God had ordain them to mean, even if their interpretations is contrary to what the mind of people have imagined.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member

When I asked, what was the purpose of Jesus coming, I was asking that from a Christian who already believes Jesus is the true Messiah.

Ok, I read your other thread, So, in that thread seems like you are assuming that Moses was a true prophet of God, and Jewish faith is true in a sense that it came from God. Now, as you know, one of the fundamental promises of Jewish Faith is the Coming of a Messiah.
So, now your position would be like a Jew, who disproves the Jesus as the true Messiah, and still is waiting for a Messiah that would make sense to what they believe.

But the thing is that, one of the prophesies that Jesus made, was His own return, and in the Baha'i View this is fulfilled already!
 
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esmith

Veteran Member
When I asked, what was the purpose of Jesus coming, I was asking that from a Christian who already believes Jesus is the true Messiah.

Ok, I read your other thread, So, in that thread seems like you are assuming that Moses was a true prophet of God, and Jewish faith is true in a sense that it came from God. Now, as you know, one of the fundamental promises of Jewish Faith is the Coming of a Messiah.
So, now your position would be like a Jew, who disproves the Jesus as the true Messiah, and still is waiting for a Messiah that would make sense to what they believe.

But the thing is that, one of the prophesies that Jesus made, was His own return, and in the Baha'i View this is fulfilled already!

In reference to your post (accented in red) you say I am assuming. Is it not true that you are assuming that Jesus is the messiah?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
In reference to your post (accented in red) you say I am assuming. Is it not true that you are assuming that Jesus is the messiah?


Well, I think, when it comes to discussing, we should discuss from an unbiased position. But, when it comes to expressing beliefs, everyone can simply express their belief and at the same time respect other's.

Therefore, I would say, I ‘believe’ that Jesus was the true Messiah, but not that I ‘assume’.
Because, the difference between assuming and belief, is that, assuming can also mean, I don't really believe, but I assume that's true, and based on this assumption, I am proving other things.
Having said that, I don't think there is anything wrong with having a discussion based on some assumptions. Because for a discussion to be useful, I think there should be a common point to start with and that common point can be some assumptions.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Well, I think, when it comes to discussing, we should discuss from an unbiased position. But, when it comes to expressing beliefs, everyone can simply express their belief and at the same time respect other's.

Therefore, I would say, I ‘believe’ that Jesus was the true Messiah, but not that I ‘assume’.
Because, the difference between assuming and belief, is that, assuming can also mean, I don't really believe, but I assume that's true, and based on this assumption, I am proving other things.
Having said that, I don't think there is anything wrong with having a discussion based on some assumptions. Because for a discussion to be useful, I think there should be a common point to start with and that common point can be some assumptions.
I respect your belief and only say that you also need to respect the belief that I hold at the present time...that Jesus was not the messiah as set forth in the Hebrew Bible. The God in the Hebrew Bible, that Christians call the Old Testament, is the God of the Jewish people. I am not saying that the God of the Hebrew Bible can not be the God of anyone who accepts Him as God, just that He chose the Israelites to be his people, starting with Abraham. It is my belief that the Paul and others took the religion of Jesus and turned it into a religion about Jesus.
 

Hodad

Member
Church is found in the Greek. The word is ekklesia, which may not translate directly to church, but assembly or congregation. At the most basic level, that is what a church was.

1577 ἐκκλησία [E)KKLHSI/A] {ekklēsía} \ek-klay-see'-ah\
from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):--assembly, church.

The Hebrew word that corresponds to ekklessia is...

6950
קהל
[qâhal] \kaw-hal'\
A primitive root; to convoke: - assemble (selves) ({together}) gather (selves) (together).

So to use the word church, and be consistent, we should use church throughout the OT when every the people gathered together.



The prophecy that Jesus made that didn't come true is the one that was quoted at the beginning of this thread, in the OP. It is what started this entire thread.

As A_E pointed out though, it may not have even come from Jesus, but originated later on.

I would think John would possibly apply here. It seems to me the things he saw and recorded in the book of Revelation would qualify. IMHO
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
Matthew 16 vs 28: I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Who are there? Are they even people who are more than 2000 years old now, since Jesus's kingdom is not here yet. Or should I read this allegorically other than literally.
.
What you think?

Sweetvoice,
When Jesus said those words he was speaking about his being TRANSFIGURED, as he was a few days after he said those words. Notice the next verses in Matt chapter 17:1,2. This transfiguration was a preview of Jesus in his glorified position as King of The Kingdom of God, so it was like that the apostles James, Peter, and John had seen the Kingdom.
Consider that Jesus used this same expression about the Kingdom at Luke 11:20, 17:20,21. Jesus was to be the King so he could say that the Kingdom was in their midst.
 

jonadab

Member
Matthew 16 vs 28: I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Who are there? Are they even people who are more than 2000 years old now, since Jesus's kingdom is not here yet. Or should I read this allegorically other than literally.

What you think?

Some may feel that these words were not fulfilled because all of Jesus’ disciples who were present when he said those words died before the establishment of God’s Kingdom in the heavens. The Interpreter’s Bible even says of this verse: “The prediction was not fulfilled, and later Christians found it necessary to explain that it was metaphorical.”
However, the context of this verse, as well as that of the parallel accounts by Mark and Luke, helps us understand the real meaning of the scripture. What did Matthew relate right after the words quoted above? He wrote: “Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and John his brother along and brought them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them.” (Matthew 17:1, 2) Both Mark and Luke also linked Jesus’ comment about the Kingdom with the account of the transfiguration. (Mark 9:1-8; Luke 9:27-36) Jesus’ coming in Kingdom power was demonstrated in his transfiguration, his appearing in glory in the presence of the three apostles. Peter verifies this understanding by speaking of “the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ” with regard to his witnessing Jesus’ transfiguration.—2 Peter 1:16-18.


Jesus took James, John, and Peter up into “a lofty mountain”—perhaps Mount Hermon, which was just a few miles distant. It was likely nighttime, since the three men were combating sleepiness. But as Jesus prayed, something happened that drove away any drowsiness.—Matthew 17:1; Luke 9:28, 29, 32.
Jesus began to change before their eyes. His face started to shine, to glow, until it became as brilliant as the sun. His clothes too were glistening white. Then two figures appeared with Jesus, one representing Moses and the other, Elijah. They conversed with him about “his departure that he was destined to fulfill at Jerusalem”—evidently his death and resurrection. How clear it was that Peter had been wrong to deny that Jesus had such a painful experience ahead of him!—Luke 9:30, 31.
Peter felt compelled to participate somehow in this extraordinary vision. It looked as if Moses and Elijah were parting from Jesus. So Peter spoke up: “Instructor, it is fine for us to be here, so let us erect three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” Of course, these visionary representations of two of Jehovah’s long-dead servants did not need tents. Peter really did not know what he was saying. Are you not drawn to the man, though, for his enthusiastic and warm spirit?—Luke 9:33.
He and James and John received another reward that night. A cloud formed and loomed over them on the mountain. From it came a voice—the voice of Jehovah God! He said: “This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.” Then the vision was over, and they were alone with Jesus on the mountain.—Luke 9:34-36.
What a gift that vision was for Peter—and for us! Decades later he wrote of the privilege he had that night of being one of the “eyewitnesses of his magnificence,” actually seeing a preview of Jesus as a glorious heavenly King. That vision confirmed many prophecies of God’s Word and strengthened Peter’s faith for the trials he had yet to face. (2 Peter 1:16-19)

 
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