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There Are No Female Leaders In Scripture.

J

Jinni

Member
The closest supposed example of a woman being a leader within God's Kingdom was the Prophetess Deborah. But, she actually led nobody. She just stood around and talked with The king while the Israeli Army did all of the work to kill off the Canaanites they were slaughtering. Deborah did not kill anyone.

The Book of Acts does mention female Disciples who were "Numbered with the Apostles." But, their function within The Apostles was not specified, and any sort of leadership by them cannot be assumed from that scant reference. They probably just stood around like Deborah and smiled in order to "seem nice."

So, what does this mean, today? When women try to teach and lead in the Church there always needs to be a man in charge of the situation. He can, if he chooses, let the woman think she is doing something important, but when she starts getting bossy, or goofy, or uppity because of her fancy clothes he needs to step up and remind her she is not in charge, regardless of how intense her emotions might be. She should be politely listened to when she talks about everything on her mind, and encouraged to keep trying, but then just given something to do to keep her busy.

Don't get me wrong, here. Women indeed are often very good managers of some kinds of situations and of children. That is what God made them to do. But, they are unable to see the Big Picture, and are unable to make decisions based upon God's Principles rather than on:

1.) Their feelings and hormones.
2.) Pragmatic reasons which "Seemed right to me!"
3.) The pressure of immediate circumstances which might make them "Feel uncomfortable as a woman ..."
4.) "I could not stop thinking about what my friends are saying!"
5.) "I was just trying to be nice!"
6.) "I thought that's what I was supposed to do!"
7.) "I didn't know what else to do!"
8.) "This is how it always has been done!"
9.) "I felt God was speaking to my heart!"
10.) "I didn't remember being told to do that!"
 
Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
You're a remarkable woman, Jinni, to be able to so clearly see your own weaknesses. I don't entirely agree with you, Jinni: not all women are like you describe them. In fact, most probably are not. But when you talk about how irrational, foolish, and self-centered women are, well, I can see those things in you. I'm impressed that you, being a woman, are able to see them too.
 
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sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jinni said:
The closest supposed example of a woman being a leader within God's Kingdom was the Prophetess Deborah. But, she actually led nobody. She just stood around and talked with The king while the Israeli Army did all of the work to kill off the Canaanites they were slaughtering. Deborah did not kill anyone.

The Book of Acts does mention female Disciples who were "Numbered with the Apostles." But, their function within The Apostles was not specified, and any sort of leadership by them cannot be assumed from that scant reference. They probably just stood around like Deborah and smiled in order to "seem nice."

So, what does this mean, today? When women try to teach and lead in the Church there always needs to be a man in charge of the situation. He can, if he chooses, let the woman think she is doing something important, but when she starts getting bossy, or goofy, or uppity because of her fancy clothes he needs to step up and remind her she is not in charge, regardless of how intense her emotions might be. She should be politely listened to when she talks about everything on her mind, and encouraged to keep trying, but then just given something to do to keep her busy.

Don't get me wrong, here. Women indeed are often very good managers of some kinds of situations and of children. That is what God made them to do. But, they are unable to see the Big Picture, and are unable to make decisions based upon God's Principles rather than on:

1.) Their feelings and hormones.
2.) Pragmatic reasons which "Seemed right to me!"
3.) The pressure of immediate circumstances which might make them "Feel uncomfortable as a woman ..."
4.) "I could not stop thinking about what my friends are saying!"
5.) "I was just trying to be nice!"
6.) "I thought that's what I was supposed to do!"
7.) "I didn't know what else to do!"
8.) "This is how it always has been done!"
9.) "I felt God was speaking to my heart!"
10.) "I didn't remember being told to do that!"
Click to expand...
:troll:

Misogyny is not a family value.

There are a number of examples in the texts referring to female leadership. Women hold a surprisingly high place in the NT, given the cultural context of the time.
 
YmirGF

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Jinni said:
Don't get me wrong, here. Women indeed are often very good managers of some kinds of situations and of children. That is what God made them to do. But, they are unable to see the Big Picture, and are unable to make decisions based upon God's Principles rather than on:
Click to expand...
You do understand that your posts, and I use that word somewhat generously, tell us much more about you than they do about your imagined god, right?

That reminds me, shouldn't you be cleaning the house, tending to the children and fixing dinner?

Isn't posting trivial rants on the InterWeb akin to frivolous chit-chat?
 
tumbleweed41

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Already put this in your other thread, but here it is again for you...


Miriam, the daughter of Aaron was a prophet and one of the triad of leaders of Israel during the Exodus from Egypt.

Deborah, a prophet-judge, headed the army of ancient Israel.

Huldah, a prophet, verified the authenticity of the "Book of the Law of the Lord given through Moses" - the Book of Deuteronomy. She triggered a religious renewal.

Philip the evangelist had four unmarried daughters who were prophets.

Paul refers to two women, Euodia and Syntyche, as his co-workers who were active evangelicals, spreading the gospel.

Paul refers to Phoebe as a minister or deacon of the church at Cenchrea. The Greek word which describes her function is "diakonos" which means literally "official servant." She is the only deacon in the Bible to be identified by name.

It was not until the Fourth Century that women were "officially" banned from holding Church leadership position.

(Source)
 
Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Is the house vacuuming itself, Jinni? You seem to spend a lot of idle time on this Forum lately. Just concerned, is all.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The closest supposed example of a woman being a leader within God's Kingdom was the Prophetess Deborah. But, she actually led nobody. She just stood around and talked with The king while the Israeli Army did all of the work to kill off the Canaanites they were slaughtering. Deborah did not kill anyone.
Click to expand...
And that's a bad thing?

1.) Their feelings and hormones. Men too have hormones. The main one being testosterone, which increases sex drive and aggression.
2.) Pragmatic reasons which "Seemed right to me!" Many people do this.
3.) The pressure of immediate circumstances which might make them "Feel uncomfortable as a woman ..." Men also feel insecure about themselves. Ever see a guy squirm around a gay guy?
4.) "I could not stop thinking about what my friends are saying!"That applies to everyone. That's a part of what psychologist and sociologist call "group behavior."
5.) "I was just trying to be nice!" Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. were trying to be nice. George Bush was also trying to be nice when he decided to bomb Iraq.
6.) "I thought that's what I was supposed to do!" That is an excuse that men use just as much as women.
7.) "I didn't know what else to do!" Same as above.
8.) "This is how it always has been done!" Again the same. This excuse does not know gender.
9.) "I felt God was speaking to my heart!" And men don't say this one?
10.) "I didn't remember being told to do that!"I'll just stop here.

Here is one that men can do better than women; think about nothing. So are men poor leaders because they can suspend thinking? Must be since a good leader has to be constantly thinking about what to do and how to handle to various issues that a leader is made to handle.
And FYI, women are now the majority of those graduating from college and in the corporate/business world. And any real evaluation between the differences between men and women, as far as cognitive abilities go, there are some differences but most people over-exaggerate them. Men and women are just as equally capable.
 
Levite

Levite

Higher and Higher
Jinni said:
The closest supposed example of a woman being a leader within God's Kingdom was the Prophetess Deborah. But, she actually led nobody. She just stood around and talked with The king while the Israeli Army did all of the work to kill off the Canaanites they were slaughtering. Deborah did not kill anyone.

The Book of Acts does mention female Disciples who were "Numbered with the Apostles." But, their function within The Apostles was not specified, and any sort of leadership by them cannot be assumed from that scant reference. They probably just stood around like Deborah and smiled in order to "seem nice."

So, what does this mean, today? When women try to teach and lead in the Church there always needs to be a man in charge of the situation. He can, if he chooses, let the woman think she is doing something important, but when she starts getting bossy, or goofy, or uppity because of her fancy clothes he needs to step up and remind her she is not in charge, regardless of how intense her emotions might be. She should be politely listened to when she talks about everything on her mind, and encouraged to keep trying, but then just given something to do to keep her busy.

Don't get me wrong, here. Women indeed are often very good managers of some kinds of situations and of children. That is what God made them to do. But, they are unable to see the Big Picture, and are unable to make decisions based upon God's Principles rather than on:

1.) Their feelings and hormones.
2.) Pragmatic reasons which "Seemed right to me!"
3.) The pressure of immediate circumstances which might make them "Feel uncomfortable as a woman ..."
4.) "I could not stop thinking about what my friends are saying!"
5.) "I was just trying to be nice!"
6.) "I thought that's what I was supposed to do!"
7.) "I didn't know what else to do!"
8.) "This is how it always has been done!"
9.) "I felt God was speaking to my heart!"
10.) "I didn't remember being told to do that!"
Click to expand...

In ancient Jewish culture, military leadership was not the sole determining factor for social and political leadership. Religious authority was often of equal or greater weight than military leadership, and that was especially true in the times prior to the establishment of the kingship.

Deborah the Prophetess was not a military leader, but that doesn't mean she wasn't the leader. She was the Judge of her time, not her general, Barak. That means that she was the political and social leader of the people.

Second of all, Miriam, the sister of Moses and Aaron, is considered a Prophetess in her own right, and the MIdrash tells many tales of her authority and her unique, miraculous ability to call forth water in the desert.

Also, there is Hulda the Prophetess (2 Kings 22 and 2 Chronicles 34), who, during the reign of the good King Josiah, was apparently the supreme authority available on judging the authenticity of God's word. That may not be political leadership, but it is unquestionably social leadership.

The Midrash also speaks of the leadership and authority of Yocheved, Moses' mother; and of Rebecca the wife of Isaac; and of Avigail and Batsheva the wives of David.

If we look to the apocryphal and post-Biblical works, we can also include Judith of Batei'lua, and Shlomtzion the Queen, the Hasmonean monarch who succeeded Alexander Yannai.

In any case, the fact that our ancestors' culture was largely patriarchal and androcentric really cannot be taken as any kind of indication that women are somehow less suitable for religious leadership. Men and women are both equally created in the image of God. And the highest qualifications for religious leadership are education, faith, ability to teach and inspire, and love of God: none of which are things which specifically require a penis, or which are in any way inhibited by having a vagina.
 
Songbird

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
Jinni said:
So, what does this mean, today? When women try to teach and lead in the Church there always needs to be a man in charge of the situation. He can, if he chooses, let the woman think she is doing something important, but when she starts getting bossy, or goofy, or uppity because of her fancy clothes he needs to step up and remind her she is not in charge, regardless of how intense her emotions might be. She should be politely listened to when she talks about everything on her mind, and encouraged to keep trying, but then just given something to do to keep her busy.
Click to expand...

I wish I thought of that. Kudos on the satire! You're good....real good.
 
Songbird

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
Kilgore Trout said:
Satire? That's an awfully big word for a woman to use. Good for you. Now why don't you slip into some sexy lingerie and I'll teach you some more big words.
Click to expand...

That's...so...MEAN. I'm having my period, and all my friends are talking about me, and I was just trying to be NICE, and I really felt God was speaking to my heart about this.

:sad4:
 
Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Songbird said:
That's...so...MEAN. I'm having my period, and all my friends are talking about me, and I was just trying to be NICE, and I really felt God was speaking to my heart about this.

:sad4:
Click to expand...

There! There, dear. Here! Hold this baby for awhile. She'll make you feel better.
 
Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Autodidact said:
Yet one more reason not to consider converting to Christianity.
Click to expand...

Au Contraire, my dear Auto. Jinni presents here the single most cognizant argument for conversion that I've heard of. Who doesn't agree that all women are bimbos? Why, the very thought they might have fine minds and good sense and decent morals is scandalous. Scandalous! I myself am already half Christian just from reading her trenchant OP. I would be fully Christian by now if only I was a woman -- for who does not relish the prospect of being trampled upon?
 
ChristineES

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I was going to respond but since I am a woman, I don't think that would be such a good idea. My hormones may speak for me and we wouldn't want that, would we? ;) (I am just kidding, guys, I say this because sometimes people take me serious when I am joking, I just wonder if they think it is because I am a woman, hee hee hee)
 
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