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My Bible's more correct than your Bible

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
It is what the Christians teach. My grandfather went to his grave not forgiving me for having sex before marriage. I see Christians picketing and spouting judgement towards homosexuals. I am not judging the Christians or the doctrines, merely making observations.
I have had these same observations and experiences, Spirit. Rather than blame Christioanity in general though, I think it would be more accurate to blame its faulty practitioners with their faulty interpretations. The Bible does condemn homosexuality and pre-marital sex, but above all else it preaches forgiveness and love. Christianity can be a wonderful thing, but I agree that some of its followers are a little nuts.
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
ummmm, I am coming across a little harsh. I guess I am still harboring some guilt that my grandfather pounded into me. I do not 'feel' animosity towards Christian denominations, I am a Christian. And every week, I have very interesting conversations with the JW's that come to my house. Yes, I actually invite them in, give them something to drink, and engage in very interesting conversations. I guess the TV evangelists were getting to me, saying that the 'sinners' of New Orleans were being punished by God. This all goes against what I believe is the truth. Jesus says 'judge not', yet those most devout followers do a lot of judging. I do not understand where they get the authority to do so.
 

Merlin

Active Member
Ceridwen018 said:

I have had these same observations and experiences, Spirit. Rather than blame Christioanity in general though, I think it would be more accurate to blame its faulty practitioners with their faulty interpretations. The Bible does condemn homosexuality and pre-marital sex, but above all else it preaches forgiveness and love. Christianity can be a wonderful thing, but I agree that some of its followers are a little nuts.
Where does it ban premarital sex (not that I condone it personally), I just like references when people make claims.
 

Merlin

Active Member
EnhancedSpirit said:
ummmm, I am coming across a little harsh. I guess I am still harboring some guilt that my grandfather pounded into me. I do not 'feel' animosity towards Christian denominations, I am a Christian. And every week, I have very interesting conversations with the JW's that come to my house. Yes, I actually invite them in, give them something to drink, and engage in very interesting conversations. I guess the TV evangelists were getting to me, saying that the 'sinners' of New Orleans were being punished by God. This all goes against what I believe is the truth. Jesus says 'judge not', yet those most devout followers do a lot of judging. I do not understand where they get the authority to do so.
I am afraid we all judge people. Those of us who are polite keep our judgment to ourselves, but we must admit privately that we have opinions about almost everything and everybody. The reason for this is that there is only one perfect person in the world, with absolutely perfect beliefs, and that of course is ourselves.
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
Merlin said:
Where does it ban premarital sex (not that I condone it personally), I just like references when people make claims.
The bible does speak against pre-marital sex, fornication, and sex outside the marriage, adultery. However, the bible does not say how many spouses a person can have. Marriage is a contract between to people. Sex is not a bad thing, it is a sacred thing. I have been told that the moment of orgasm is a window to Heaven. So, when we are in Heaven, it feels like 'that feeling' all of the time. Unconditional Love, Agape, causes your physical body to vibrate at a higher level. When the bible speaks against fornication and adultry, it is sending two messages, 1) don't do something that will cause pain for someone else, 2) don't throw your pearls among swine. This sacred dance should only be done with someone you love, other wise the vibrations are all wrong, and you can cause serious waves of negativity.
 

Merlin

Active Member
Ceridwen018 said:

I have had these same observations and experiences, Spirit. Rather than blame Christioanity in general though, I think it would be more accurate to blame its faulty practitioners with their faulty interpretations. The Bible does condemn homosexuality and pre-marital sex, but above all else it preaches forgiveness and love. Christianity can be a wonderful thing, but I agree that some of its followers are a little nuts.
Here is an example of way are a young girl was forced to get into bed with the old king so that he could rape her. Fortunately (or not as you believe) he was too close to death to take advantage. Having said that, it is unlikely he would not have been given these opportunities during his younger life. Does this qualify as premarital sex?

1 KIngs 1.1 (RSV)

"Now King David was old and advanced in years; and although they covered him with clothes, he could not get warm.

2 Therefore his servants said to him, "Let a young maiden be sought for my lord the king, and let her wait upon the king, and be his nurse; let her lie in your bosom, that my lord the king may be warm."

3 So they sought for a beautiful maiden throughout all the territory of Israel, and found Abishag the Shunammite, and brought her to the king.

4 The maiden was very beautiful; and she became the king’s nurse and ministered to him; but the king 'knew her' not."


I think we know what 'knew her' means.
 

Merlin

Active Member
EnhancedSpirit said:
The bible does speak against pre-marital sex, fornication, and sex outside the marriage, adultery. However, the bible does not say how many spouses a person can have. Marriage is a contract between to people. Sex is not a bad thing, it is a sacred thing. I have been told that the moment of orgasm is a window to Heaven. So, when we are in Heaven, it feels like 'that feeling' all of the time. Unconditional Love, Agape, causes your physical body to vibrate at a higher level. When the bible speaks against fornication and adultry, it is sending two messages, 1) don't do something that will cause pain for someone else, 2) don't throw your pearls among swine. This sacred dance should only be done with someone you love, other wise the vibrations are all wrong, and you can cause serious waves of negativity.
I would love to know where the person who told you that an orgasm is a window into heaven got his or her information from? Also, the concept that this feeling will occur permanently in heaven does not fill me with a great deal of joy. Clearly, I am a normal male with normal desires etc, but no matter what pleasure you are discussing, to have it permanently for ever and ever would be terrible.

Do you have any Biblical verses to court where they forbid premarital sex?

adultery is not premarital sex. To commit adultery one of you has to be already married. I can see that not being a good idea, but I find it difficult to believe that two free individuals could not make their own decisions without having to fear hellfire and damnation. It is actually not that big a deal between two unmarried consenting adults.
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
Merlin said:
Here is an example of way are a young girl was forced to get into bed with the old king so that he could rape her. Fortunately (or not as you believe) he was too close to death to take advantage. Having said that, it is unlikely he would not have been given these opportunities during his younger life. Does this qualify as premarital sex?

1 KIngs 1.1 (RSV)

"Now King David was old and advanced in years; and although they covered him with clothes, he could not get warm.

2 Therefore his servants said to him, "Let a young maiden be sought for my lord the king, and let her wait upon the king, and be his nurse; let her lie in your bosom, that my lord the king may be warm."

3 So they sought for a beautiful maiden throughout all the territory of Israel, and found Abishag the Shunammite, and brought her to the king.

4 The maiden was very beautiful; and she became the king’s nurse and ministered to him; but the king 'knew her' not."


I think we know what 'knew her' means.
This story does not imply 'rape' any where. It says that the sick King could not get warm even with blankets, and that a girl should be brought in to lay next to him to get him warm, and to revive him somewhat. It says specificly that he 'knew her not', so it could not be pre-marital sex.
1 King David grew old. The years had caught up with him. Even though they piled blankets on him, he couldn't keep warm. 2 So his servants said to him, "We're going to get a young virgin for our master the king to be at his side and look after him; she'll get in bed with you and arouse our master the king." 3 So they searched the country of Israel for the most ravishing girl they could find; they found Abishag the Shunammite and brought her to the king. 4 The girl was stunningly beautiful; she stayed at his side and looked after the king, but the king did not have sex with her.
 

Merlin

Active Member
EnhancedSpirit said:
This story does not imply 'rape' any where. It says that the sick King could not get warm even with blankets, and that a girl should be brought in to lay next to him to get him warm, and to revive him somewhat. It says specificly that he 'knew her not', so it could not be pre-marital sex.
1 King David grew old. The years had caught up with him. Even though they piled blankets on him, he couldn't keep warm. 2 So his servants said to him, "We're going to get a young virgin for our master the king to be at his side and look after him; she'll get in bed with you and arouse our master the king." 3 So they searched the country of Israel for the most ravishing girl they could find; they found Abishag the Shunammite and brought her to the king. 4 The girl was stunningly beautiful; she stayed at his side and looked after the king, but the king did not have sex with her.
Sorry, I agree that nothing sexual took place as its states specifically that "he did not know her", which is Biblical speak for did not have sex. But that was because he was too sick. Had he been less sick, then the implication is that he would have taken advantage if he had been able to. So it was not to his credit, he did not refuse her, he was just dying and therefore unable.
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
Merlin said:
Do you have any Biblical verses to court where they forbid premarital sex?
The word 'fornication' is found 32 times in the KJV, here are a few:

Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
Merlin said:
Sorry, I agree that nothing sexual took place as its states specifically that "he did not know her", which is Biblical speak for did not have sex. But that was because he was too sick. Had he been less sick, then the implication is that he would have taken advantage if he had been able to. So it was not to his credit, he did not refuse her, he was just dying and therefore unable.
Are we playing 'what if'? We must have a true understanding of the biblical sense of marriage, to fully understand how all this works. If two consenting adults have sex, their is at least an unspoken contract between them, is this not, in some way, a marriage of souls? The definition of marriage has changed somewhat, I think this is where the confusion sets in. The main thing is don't hurt anyone. You may have sex with a woman you have no intentions of marrying, and at the time it might be fine with her as well, but what's going to happen when you move on? Isn't this going to cause some negative feelings? Then, you are going to have to deal with the Karma that your actions created.
 

Merlin

Active Member
EnhancedSpirit said:
Merlin said:
Do you have any Biblical verses to court where they forbid premarital sex?
The word 'fornication' is found 32 times in the KJV, here are a few:

Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Doesn't fornication include relationships within marriage?
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
Merlin said:
Doesn't fornication include relationships within marriage?
Fornication: Sexual intercourse between two unmarried people.

Marriage: A contractually committed partnership, including sexualove, cohabitation, shared economy/property and mutual childrearing.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Merlin said:
Where does it ban premarital sex (not that I condone it personally), I just like references when people make claims.
Well, men are pretty much allowed to do whatever they want, but for a woman to have premarital sex is damnable. In Leviticus and Deuteronomy...Deut. 22 specifically I think...there is much talk of women being shunned from society when "proof of their virginity" cannot be found come marriage time. Also, prostitutes are certainly considered to be the scum of a community. God save those patriarchal soceities! Gotta love 'em.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Merlin said:
I find it difficult to believe that two free individuals could not make their own decisions without having to fear hellfire and damnation. It is actually not that big a deal between two unmarried consenting adults.
I see sex as the means by which God allows a man and a woman to participate in one of the greatest miracles He has ever performed: that of creating new life. Life, I believe, is so sacred that the process by which it is initiated should be sacred as well. When a child is conceived, a simple biological process takes place in which a single cell divides, once, twice, three times and, ultimately millions and millions of times. Organs develop, arms and legs, tiny eyes, ears, noses and mouths are formed, and we say that life is created. But that child isn’t really a living soul until the real Creator of life infuses that little body with a spirit. In other words, men and women don’t create life – God does. But, men and women do have the ability to put the process into motion. The question is: Do they have the right to take that first step without having first been given the divine approval to do so? I don't believe they do.

It might be argued that sex doesn't necessarily need to result in conception. And that's correct. But, I see the potential for procreation, and the concept that God has given human beings the right to be as co-creators of life as being so sacred that whether a child results or not makes no difference. The act is the same regardless.
 

Merlin

Active Member
EnhancedSpirit said:
Are we playing 'what if'? We must have a true understanding of the biblical sense of marriage, to fully understand how all this works. If two consenting adults have sex, their is at least an unspoken contract between them, is this not, in some way, a marriage of souls? The definition of marriage has changed somewhat, I think this is where the confusion sets in. The main thing is don't hurt anyone. You may have sex with a woman you have no intentions of marrying, and at the time it might be fine with her as well, but what's going to happen when you move on? Isn't this going to cause some negative feelings? Then, you are going to have to deal with the Karma that your actions created.
In the modern world it works both ways. it is not always the man who is playing fast and loose. But I think we are well off the point now
 

Merlin

Active Member
Katzpur said:
I see sex as the means by which God allows a man and a woman to participate in one of the greatest miracles He has ever performed: that of creating new life. Life, I believe, is so sacred that the process by which it is initiated should be sacred as well. When a child is conceived, a simple biological process takes place in which a single cell divides, once, twice, three times and, ultimately millions and millions of times. Organs develop, arms and legs, tiny eyes, ears, noses and mouths are formed, and we say that life is created. But that child isn’t really a living soul until the real Creator of life infuses that little body with a spirit. In other words, men and women don’t create life – God does. But, men and women do have the ability to put the process into motion. The question is: Do they have the right to take that first step without having first been given the divine approval to do so? I don't believe they do.

It might be argued that sex doesn't necessarily need to result in conception. And that's correct. But, I see the potential for procreation, and the concept that God has given human beings the right to be as co-creators of life as being so sacred that whether a child results or not makes no difference. The act is the same regardless.
Does this mean that Mormons are anti contraception?
 

Bennettresearch

Politically Incorrect
Hey Spirit,

Letting your personal issues get the best of you? The paradigm of family, faithfulness to your mate, being a good person, etc., is still valid regardless of how much freedon we have to do what we want to do in modern society. There was a time when I was a young hedonistic heathen fornicator. I didn't ever go around pointing my finger at families and criticize them, I didn't care. Judgemental? Name one goup with an agenda nowadays that isn't! To point the finger at Christians is disengenuous.

Back on topic.

I think that what we have come to agree on in this thread is that there is no one original unimpeachable source for scripture. Even Jayhawk admits that the Tanach is still a copy and not the definitive original. AS to the KJV, it only claimed the originals of the time to be improper translations and has been represented as a difinitive translation of scripture. However, this isn't necessarily so either. All in all, it makes it very difficult to point to scripture to prove anything or to come up with an absolute answer to the question of societal mores.
 

may

Well-Known Member
Merlin said:
When you found one where the word had been changed to affect the meaning of the passage, how do you know the first one was correct? Maybe the new one is correct?[/QUOTEyes i agree maybe the new one is correct, especially if the whole of the new bible harmonizes when it is translated that way , as the bible should never contradict itself ,i have found a bible for me that is in complete harmony , as to the most up to date understanding at this point in time it is the NWT
"And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant. Daniel 12;4


(Daniel 12:9) And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end....... many things are revealed in the time of the end not only understanding about bible prophecy but also more understanding about what the scriptures are really saying ,yes true knowledge will become abundant and deeply intrenched things that have buried the true meaning will be cast off out the way,and then the pure word of God will shine through.

 
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