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Does the Universe need a Cause?

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
He's probably talking about the atheist of 20th century, who assumed that the universe was eternal..

I never heard of such a thing. I start of with the understanding that the universe is 13.75 billion years old so I'm not sure I would conclude the universe to "eternal". It sounds contradictory to me and sounds like Mr. Craig is talking out of his (petuty)..:facepalm:
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
I never heard of such a thing. I start of with the understanding that the universe is 13.75 billion years old so I'm not sure I would conclude the universe to "eternal". It sounds contradictory to me and sounds like Mr. Craig is talking out of his (petuty)..:facepalm:
The Big Bang Theory originally appeared in contrast to the hypothesis that the universe was eternal. It only gained favour when the speeds of galaxies were determined.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
The Big Bang Theory originally appeared in contrast to the hypothesis that the universe was eternal. It only gained favour when the speeds of galaxies were determined.

So the universe, before the BBT, was hypothesized as being eternal....correct?

If so this may be why I never heard of this. I've only read or heard info concerning the BBT and everything after that.

Interesting. One learns something new, in this case it's new for me, everyday.:p
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
So the universe, before the BBT, was hypothesized as being eternal....correct?

If so this may be why I never heard of this. I've only read or heard info concerning the BBT and everything after that.

Interesting. One learns something new, in this case it's new for me, everyday.:p
Because until we actually did the astronomy, which spawned the BBT quite quickly, we were shooting in the dark. :p
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member


Infinity by definition (ha,ha) is the only reality. All else is Maya, or the pull of imagination.

Infinity, by reality, is the combination of the simultaneous now, the anywhen; and future potential derived between the two... matches, Bear; playing with matches. :D

And where alla them sacrilegious blogs? ;)
 

St Giordano Bruno

Well-Known Member
Infinity is not a specific number so multiplying it by itself is meaningless if you have nothing specifically to multiply. The universe on the other hand may exist in a finite number of virtual particles which also it may be such a large number it would be impossible for us earthlings to quantify it would still be finite nonetheless.
 

FlyingTeaPot

Irrational Rationalist. Educated Fool.
Bare with me:


If :


Infinity - 1 = Infinity

Infinity - 1000 = Infinity

Infinity minus any number is Infinity.


Then Infinity is a mathematical construct or concept that cannot be exported into our world; Infinity can not "actually" exist.

Therefore Infinity is "Potential", and not "Actual".

The world exists, then the world is "actual", which implies that the Universe cannot be Infinite since the concept of Infinity is Potential and not actual.

Anything that is not infinite must have had a beginning, and for anything to begin to exist from nothing it needs a Cause. The Cause is the Creator of the Universe.


Now Is the question "who caused the Creator" valid?


Not at all: If we were to assume that there should be infinite causes then there will be no effect, nothing will begin to exist. For example, If i needed to take permission from someone to perform a certain action, and that someone needs to take permission from someone else, and it goes all the way to an infinite number of persons (or causes), then the permission will not be initiated and the action will not take place. If we applied this concept to the Universe, then the Universe could have never existed.


For the Universe to Exist from nothing; that singularity of infinite density and zero volume (nothingness) that exploded into shaping our fine tuned universe, it must have a Cause; The Creator. God.

ACCORDING TO GROWING NUMBERS OF SCIENTISTS, the laws and constants of nature are so "finely-tuned," and so many "coincidences" have occurred to allow for the possibility of life, the universe must have come into existence through intentional planning and intelligence. In fact, this "fine-tuning" is so pronounced, and the "coincidences" are so numerous, many scientists have come to espouse "The Anthropic Principle," which contends that the universe was brought into existence intentionally for the sake of producing mankind. Even those who do not accept The Anthropic Principle admit to the "fine-tuning" and conclude that the universe is "too contrived" to be a chance event.

In a BBC science documentary, "The Anthropic Principle," some of the greatest scientific minds of our day describe the recent findings which compel this conclusion.

Dr. Dennis Scania, the distinguished head of Cambridge University Observatories: "If you change a little bit the laws of nature, or you change a little bit the constants of nature -- like the charge on the electron -- then the way the universe develops is so changed, it is very likely that intelligent life would not have been able to develop."

Dr. David D. Deutsch, Institute of Mathematics, Oxford University: "If we nudge one of these constants just a few percent in one direction, stars burn out within a million years of their formation, and there is no time for evolution. If we nudge it a few percent in the other direction, then no elements heavier than helium form. No carbon, no life. Not even any chemistry. No complexity at all."

Dr. Paul Davies, noted author and professor of theoretical physics at Adelaide University: "The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge, and would be total chaos if any of the natural 'constants' were off even slightly. Davies adds "even if you dismiss man as a chance happening, the fact remains that the universe seems unreasonably suited to the existence of life -- almost contrived -- you might say a 'put-up job.'"

According to the latest scientific thinking, the matter of the universe originated in a huge explosion of energy called "The Big Bang." At first, the universe was only hydrogen and helium, which congealed into stars. Subsequently, all the other elements were manufactured inside the stars. The four most abundant elements in the universe are, in order, hydrogen, helium, oxygen and carbon. When Sir Fred Hoyle was researching how carbon came to be, in the "blast-furnaces" of the stars, his calculations indicated that it is very difficult to explain how the stars generated the necessary quantity of carbon upon which life on earth depends. Hoyle found that there were numerous "fortunate" one-time occurrences which seemed to indicate that puposeful "adjustments" had been made in the laws of physics and chemistry in order to produce the necessary carbon.

Hoyle sums up his findings as follows:

"A COMMON SENSE INTERPRETATION OF THE FACTS SUGGESTS THAT A SUPERINTENDENT HAS MONKEYED WITH THE PHYSICS, AS WELL AS CHEMISTRY AND BIOLOGY, AND THAT THERE ARE NO BLIND FORCES WORTH SPEAKING ABOUT IN NATURE. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ANY PHYSICIST WHO EXAMINED THE EVIDENCE COULD FAIL TO DRAW THE INFERENCE THAT THE LAWS OF NUCLEAR PHYSICS HAVE BEEN DELIBERATELY DESIGNED WITH REGARD TO THE CONSEQUENCES THEY PRODUCE WITHIN STARS."

Adds Dr. David D. Deutch: "If anyone claims not to be surprised by the special features that the universe has, he is hiding his head in the sand. These special features ARE surprising and unlikely."

No one claims that the universe is infinitely big. Your basic premise is wrong. It follows that your entire argument, based on a flawed premise, is flawed.
 

Keezov

New Member
Simple logic says that each limited, narrow creature is limited because someone or something has limited it, if there none to narrow you - you're limitless, in other words you're infinite. According to that axiome, there must be some force that limited each one of us (and i'm talking about material limit now, not mental), whoever was it, the one who've made matter, is the restrictive cause.
Today physics say that matter has been made of energy agglomeration, but who can give you the answer to question: who agglomerate the energy ? who is the reason to accumulation of energy, and who's made that energy initially. You can say "i don't know", but you definitely see and know that there is someone who is at the bottom of all.
 

Keezov

New Member
Physics. There isn't a "who," only a "what."
If the reason of matter defined as "what", all the results of it also called "what", but you might notice that we call "who" to these who can talk, express his mind, his mentally will, this shows theirs high spiritual nature. So if you call a men "who", you also call theirs Reason as "who" (because mens spirit has been made by the infinite energy).

Yes. And that is an objective opinion, "logic" itself as concept cannot be subjective.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There is consideration going on linking the Big Bang with the Multi-verse theory to where the universe may very well have originated via expulsion from a White hole as being a point of origin and ensuing expansion.
 

Wa Dok

Tea Man
For me, God is the rule of order and governance which determines outcomes of transience. Its pallet is energy/matter and its canvas is time, which, until we absolutely prove otherwise is infinite; Einstein notwithstanding. Gravity appears to be the driving energy of transition, but is not defined completely enough so that we have achieved any unified theory of mechanics.
We strive daily to unlock natural (God's) law. In my opinion, we will continue to strive but never fully unlock all the doors of mystery.
Now I made my living as a "scientist". I practiced aquatic toxicology.
I have both male and female mathematicians (engineers and professors) in my genetic tree. And, I wish to make one point clear which will generate controversy, but I hope will some day clarify many problems in some of the theories floated by the highest minded and respected scientists in the world; now and in the past.
The square root of unity is unity. it is not "i". If we review some of the conclusions that we were led to by making the square root of minus one= "i", then we will abandon the "Big Bang" theory and begin to see God quite clearly. The thing we call time is not a variable but a constant. Take away the notion that time is a variable, and we are free of conflict between "science" and spirituality.
As for personal intervention, it seems to me that I have had many prayers answered. Perhaps it was just some sort of "accident" that so many things I hoped for were delivered, but sometime in my 30s it reached a tipping point where I could no longer deny that intervention might be a function of God as well as creation and the law that governs it.
I am a Buddhist. I am unsure if it should be called a religion. It is a practice which endeavors to place one's mind in charge of one's flesh. Buddha was a human being. When I think of Buddha, worship is not the right word for what I feel about his thoughts and the things he is quoted as having preached. Extreme admiration and awe for this human being in his time is what I feel. This has nothing to do with God. As good lawyers are apt to say, "these are separate issues".
For me, God is not about faith at all. I know God exists and expresses itself as governance. We (every living thing in the universe) encounter it every day and are subject to its rule of law. We can like it or lump it, but we will obey the rules from birth until death and quite possibly beyond. After all, if the square root of -1 does not = "i", then repeat perforances will always continue, no matter what we may wish or not.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
For me, God is the rule of order and governance which determines outcomes of transience. Its pallet is energy/matter and its canvas is time, which, until we absolutely prove otherwise is infinite; Einstein notwithstanding. Gravity appears to be the driving energy of transition, but is not defined completely enough so that we have achieved any unified theory of mechanics.
We strive daily to unlock natural (God's) law. In my opinion, we will continue to strive but never fully unlock all the doors of mystery.
Now I made my living as a "scientist". I practiced aquatic toxicology.
I have both male and female mathematicians (engineers and professors) in my genetic tree. And, I wish to make one point clear which will generate controversy, but I hope will some day clarify many problems in some of the theories floated by the highest minded and respected scientists in the world; now and in the past.
The square root of unity is unity. it is not "i". If we review some of the conclusions that we were led to by making the square root of minus one= "i", then we will abandon the "Big Bang" theory and begin to see God quite clearly. The thing we call time is not a variable but a constant. Take away the notion that time is a variable, and we are free of conflict between "science" and spirituality.
As for personal intervention, it seems to me that I have had many prayers answered. Perhaps it was just some sort of "accident" that so many things I hoped for were delivered, but sometime in my 30s it reached a tipping point where I could no longer deny that intervention might be a function of God as well as creation and the law that governs it.
I am a Buddhist. I am unsure if it should be called a religion. It is a practice which endeavors to place one's mind in charge of one's flesh. Buddha was a human being. When I think of Buddha, worship is not the right word for what I feel about his thoughts and the things he is quoted as having preached. Extreme admiration and awe for this human being in his time is what I feel. This has nothing to do with God. As good lawyers are apt to say, "these are separate issues".
For me, God is not about faith at all. I know God exists and expresses itself as governance. We (every living thing in the universe) encounter it every day and are subject to its rule of law. We can like it or lump it, but we will obey the rules from birth until death and quite possibly beyond. After all, if the square root of -1 does not = "i", then repeat perforances will always continue, no matter what we may wish or not.

Time is a conceptual tool used to measure processes. Processes are in no way constant as everything everywhere is subject to change and impermanence. You cannot statically measure time and there are no cases where I have ever seen that done in that respect much less demonstrated. Its plain fantasy. Forget about it.
 
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