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Male circumcision

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Sweetvoice

Member
Genesis 17 vs 10 to 14: God convenat for male to be circumcised.
My questions are: Why the act for circumcision, and does it make you holier? What is the consequences for breaking this convenant? And so, why not for women?
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
The practice appears to have been borrowed from the religion of the Egyptians. From Wikipedia.
"Sixth Dynasty (2345 - 2181 BC) tomb artwork in Egypt is thought to be the oldest documentary evidence of circumcision, the most ancient depiction being a bas-relief from the necropolis at Saqqara (ca. 2400 B.C) with the inscription reading "Hold him and do not allow him to faint". In the oldest written account, by an Egyptian named Uha, in the 23rd century B.C, he describes a mass circumcision and boasts of his ability to stoically endure the pain: "When I was circumcised, together with one hundred and twenty men...there was none thereof who hit out, there was none thereof who was hit, and there was none thereof who scratched and there was none thereof who was scratched."http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/#cite_note-1
Circumcision in ancient Egypt was thought to be a mark of passage from childhood to adulthood. The alteration of the body and ritual of circumcision was supposed to give access to ancient mysteries reserved solely for the initiated. The content of those mysteries are unclear but are likely to be myths, prayers, and incantations central to Egyptian religion. The Egyptian Book of the Dead, for example, tells of the sun god Ra performing a self-circumcision, whose blood created two minor guardian deities. Circumcisions were performed by priests in a public ceremony, using a stone blade. It is thought to have been more popular among the upper echelons of the society, although it was not universal and those lower down the social order are known to have had the procedure done."
​
Evidently then the Abrahamic god sought to continue the Egyptian practice of circumcision as a sign of the Israelites' covenant with him. Now why he would adopt a process connected to other gods, such as the Sun god Ra, seems strange, but evidently that's how it went. My question, which includes all religions advocating circumcision, is why and how this odd practice came about. Who decided that taking skin off the end of the penis was a great idea? Brrrrr! :no:

As for, why not women? Women were always second class people back then, even among the Israelites; never considered worthy enough to be admitted to the mysteries, even by god hisself..
 
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Sweetvoice

Member
@skwim: Ancient egyptian practices of circumcision, although likely have carried over some influence to modern man, is not predated what mentioned in genesis. I ask those questions out of curiosity the purpose and spiritual usefulness of this act - and the equality of it between sexes. Even god shows inequality among his very own creation - that is why his bilical actions never sit well with me.
I have yet to be proven to believe that the first two chapters (and some) of the bible is anything to go by for modern man to use as a guide for spiritual development. God in the bible has not shown by and through his examples (for we are simple and innocent men) to take as a mentor for moral discipline, let alone spiritual guide.
Thank you for your infor.
 
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Levite

Levite

Higher and Higher
Sweetvoice said:
Genesis 17 vs 10 to 14: God convenat for male to be circumcised.
My questions are: Why the act for circumcision, and does it make you holier? What is the consequences for breaking this convenant? And so, why not for women?
Click to expand...

In Judaism, we understand the act of ritual circumcision to be a physicalized representation of accepting the covenant of Abraham. It is a way to carry the covenant not only bound into one's flesh, but into the flesh we use for procreation, symbolic of our commitment to passing the covenant on to our children.

This act does not make us holier, but rather marks us out as unique, inheritors of Abraham's covenant, members of the Jewish People. It is part of how we define who we are, as dedicated Jewish men, bound in every part of our lives to God's service.

If a Jewish man is not circumcised, he is spiritually cut off from the Jewish People, and he is rendered incapable, under Jewish Law, of participation in Jewish ritual life.

There is no one accepted answer for why women have no equivalent physical ritual. Some say that it is simply a matter of their genitals being mostly internal. Others say that it is because in ancient times, men customarily took oaths holding their genitals (hence the Latin derivation for the term "testimony"), while women did not, and so no equivalent was deemed necessary. Others say that women's role in the covenant is marked by childbearing, as we count Jewish identity matrilinearly. Still others say that women have no need of a physicalized reminder because they are more adept at grasping spiritual commitments. There are many, many other opinions also. And of course many modern scholars simply feel that there is no equivalent ritual because ancient society was androcentric, and simply did not think to be inclusive of women in that way.
 
Terrywoodenpic

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Falvlun said:
It essentially is, just not codified.
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Not even near....

It is more cultural. In the USA it is normal... in the UK and most of Europe It is rare.
Few doctors in the UK can even do it , they are not taught how.

There is no Christian ritual or dogma associated with it.
 
WayFarer

WayFarer

Rogue Scholar
Sweetvoice said:
@skwim: Ancient egyptian practices of circumcision, although likely have carried over some influence to modern man, is not predated what mentioned in genesis.
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How so? The Sixth Dynasty (2345 - 2181 BCE) would have predated Moses.
There have been over two hundred attempts to match the biblical chronology to dates in history, two of the more influential being the traditional Jewish dates (Abraham lived 1812 BCE to 1637 BCE), and those of the 17th century Archbishop James Ussher (1976 BCE to 1801 BCE); but the most that can be said with some degree of certainty is that the standard Hebrew text of Genesis places Abraham in the earlier part of the second millennium BCE.[10]​
 
S

Sweetvoice

Member
Levite said:
In Judaism, we understand the act of ritual circumcision to be a physicalized representation of accepting the covenant of Abraham. It is a way to carry the covenant not only bound into one's flesh, but into the flesh we use for procreation, symbolic of our commitment to passing the covenant on to our children.

This act does not make us holier, but rather marks us out as unique, inheritors of Abraham's covenant, members of the Jewish People. It is part of how we define who we are, as dedicated Jewish men, bound in every part of our lives to God's service.

If a Jewish man is not circumcised, he is spiritually cut off from the Jewish People, and he is rendered incapable, under Jewish Law, of participation in Jewish ritual life.

There is no one accepted answer for why women have no equivalent physical ritual. Some say that it is simply a matter of their genitals being mostly internal. Others say that it is because in ancient times, men customarily took oaths holding their genitals (hence the Latin derivation for the term "testimony"), while women did not, and so no equivalent was deemed necessary. Others say that women's role in the covenant is marked by childbearing, as we count Jewish identity matrilinearly. Still others say that women have no need of a physicalized reminder because they are more adept at grasping spiritual commitments. There are many, many other opinions also. And of course many modern scholars simply feel that there is no equivalent ritual because ancient society was androcentric, and simply did not think to be inclusive of women in that way.
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Yours is a reasonable and decent explanation of the Judaism faith regarding circumcision. Thank you. It would be nice if Moses or some of his buddies would have asked god why women are excused from it. Circumcision for females certain could be done since it is only symbolic. I feel pain for the young male jews.
 
M

Maury83

Member
Madhuri said:
Why isn't circumcision a Christian practice?
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After God showed his acceptance of Gentiles into the Christian congregation , and since many from the nations were responding to the preaching of the good news, a decision had to be made if it was necessary for Gentile Christians to get circumcised in the flesh. I you read Acts 15 vs 6 to 29 you can read the whole debate.
In other words it was decided that circumcision in the flesh was no longer obligatory... however they had to ensure they abstained from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication.

Hope this answers your question.
 
TalAbrams

TalAbrams

Member
Sweetvoice pretty much covered it all. You must be circumcised to enter into the Abrahamic Covenant. And, Marble is right too, there is a major difference between male and female circumcision. To circumcise is to cut around. What barbarians do to women is not circumcision at all; it is mutilation and butchery.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Sweetvoice said:
Yours is a reasonable and decent explanation of the Judaism faith regarding circumcision. Thank you. It would be nice if Moses or some of his buddies would have asked god why women are excused from it. Circumcision for females certain could be done since it is only symbolic. I feel pain for the young male jews.
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Good point.:) What also should be remembered in this conversation is the fact that there are CULTURAL differences between Judaism and Christianity.
Christianity is not a "sect" of Judaism, as much as some Christians seem to subscribe to this view. Other rules in the OT, no lobster, no pork, etc.
 
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beenie

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Female "circumcision" (I call it FGM) has absolutely no religious or spiritual significance, nor is it required in order to become a member of anything.

It's a culturally-rooted tool to control women from promiscuity and to preserve family honor. Of course, medically speaking, FGM robs women from pleasure during intercourse. Male circumcision does not. One could compare FGM to castration.

FGM is abusive and disgusting. If it weren't for religious obligation, I'm not sure I'd circumcise boys either. This is why I'm glad I have all girls. :eek:
 
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D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
ssainhu said:
Female "circumcision" (I call it FGM) has absolutely no religious or spiritual significance, nor is it required in order to become a member if anything.

It's a culturally-rooted tool to control women from promiscuity and to preserve family honor. Of course, medically speaking, FGM robs women from pleasure during intercourse. Male circumcision does not. One could compare FGM to castration.

FGM is abusive and disgusting. If it weren't for religious obligation, I'm not sure I'd circumcise boys either. This is why I'm glad I have all girls. :eek:
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Yeah, I was just throwing in the whole, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" idea, you know, male/female 'equality' and all. The real answer to the OP's question lies in cultural differences, I believe. I do think however think that females should consider the fact that their views on circumcision can be argued to be hypocritical. :) That being said, Judaism practices circumcision, no big deal.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Skwim said:
The practice appears to have been borrowed from the religion of the Egyptians. From Wikipedia ...
Click to expand...
Another interesting Wikipedia reference might be Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

And, speaking of interesting, I find it at least mildly interesting that you did not quote the opening sentence of your reference:
The origination of male circumcision is not known with certainty.​
nor the sentence immediately preceding the paragraph you chose to share:
It is possible that circumcision arose independently in different cultures for different reasons.​
 
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