Bhava were God is lover

Can someone explain that Bhava were God is ones lover?
I think the Gopis were in that Bhava and Mirabai too.
Is that something exclusive for the Vaishnavas?

Namaste Marble

The bhava you are thinking of is Madhura Bhava, and you are correct Mirabai and the Gopis would be perfect examples of those following Madhura Bhava.This Bhava is definitely prominent in the Vaishnava tradition (Bengali Vaishnavism in particular), but Vaishnavism certainly doesn't have a monoply on it. Many Shaiva saints also practiced Madhura Bhava, famous examples would be Karaikkal Ammiyar, Lal Ded, and Akka Mahadevi (pictured below).

Somehow this Bhava seems to be experienced chiefly by women.
Is there also a tradition were men perceive themselves as lover of Devi, or is that a taboo?
I have heared of men worshipping Radha and dressing a women, but they strive to become her sakhis (female friends).

I can't think of any historical examples to justify Madhur Bhava towards Devi, but I don't see any reason why one couldn't practice it. As far as I am aware there aren't any injuctions against it.

A devotee can be in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in one of five different ways:

• • in a passive state (neutrality)
  • in an active state (servitorship)
  • as a friend (friendship)
  • as a parent (parental affection)
  • as a conjugal lover (amorous)

Our unique, individual relationship with the Lord is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. Unfortunately, in the present status of our conditioned life, we have not only forgotten the Lord, we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. By engagine in the process of devotional service, called svarupa, we can revive that eternal relationship.

. . . Continued . . .

The Hare Krsnas - Transcendental Associates - The Transcendental Rasas (Relationships)

Guard against Rasa-bhasa.
Rasa-bhasa: Mixing of non-compatible devotional sentiments [or also, mixing devotional sentiments obviously 'non-compatible material moptivations'] -- This is the danger and also this is the spiritual test that one undergoes during visits to a place of pilgrimage (a tirtha).

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It must be remembered that Krishna's youthfull Rasa-lila dance occurred while he was an innocent 8 year old along with others of his own age ---doing an old time "square-dance" down on the dairy farm.

Above is a proper rendering of the Cowherd maidens of Vrindavan that were known as the Gopis who had Krishna's boyhood pastimes as theirown village 'puppy-love' affections.



Above is Krishna along with Radha. Note their very youthful age. This is the correct visage of Krishna's childhood pastimes.

Check out a sampling of "Little Krishna" [sorry I think this link is in Hindi only ---else, see Youtube for clips]:
http://www.casttv.com/video/e1ivp3m/veer-yoddha-little-krishna-hindi-film-trilogy-dvd-2-video

Atman said:

I can't think of any historical examples to justify Madhur Bhava towards Devi, but I don't see any reason why one couldn't practice it. As far as I am aware there aren't any injuctions against it.

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I think there is a taboo against a male perceiving himself as Devi's lover,
Vamakhyapa, Ramprasad Sen, Ramakrishna - they all worshipped Devi as their mother.
In Christianity too, bridal mystic seems to be exclusively female, I cannot imagine a monk to imagine himself as bridegroom of Mother Mary, but nuns were officially married with Jesus once they entered a convent.

By the way - does anybody know women mystics who worshipped Devi?
I know of women who worshipped Shiva, Vishnu or Krishna, but never I came accross a woman-saint devoted to Shakti.
What is surprising, as in the west the concept of Great Goddess, Divine Mother, Divine Force are seen as liberating for women.

Marble said:

I think there is a taboo against a male perceiving himself as Devi's lover,
Vamakhyapa, Ramprasad Sen, Ramakrishna - they all worshipped Devi as their mother.

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I would not call it a taboo- the reason is different. Generally speaking, women are more capable of the "love of heart only" and males think more on the sexual side when they think of love. You can see the bhajans of Mirabai (a female saint)- it reflects non sexual intense love- almost like she is one with Lord Krishna.

The males who worshipped a female form of the Divine always worshipped them as mother.

The males who worshipped the Divine male forms often worshipped the Lord thinking of themselves as a female (Narsinh Mehta, Premanand Swami)- this is reflected in their bhajans again- just like Mirabai.

Celibacy is a key in spiritual practice. I think, this is the reason for the perceived taboo you are talking about. Mirbai was as celibate in her relation with Lord Krishna as Narsinh Mehta and RamaKrishna Paramhans. Madhur Bhava, in my opinion, is the intense love of the Lord and DOES NOT have a sexual aspect in any way.

The Raas Leela of Lord Krishna (origin of the "madhur bhava") in Srimad Bhagvatam is often misinterpreted. Lord Krishna conquered the Kamdev on that day in his own turf. It was a full moon night in the spring and he was with lot of ladies dancing with them and all of them loved Him and danced to His tunes- a perfect setting giving Kamdev required things to be very very strong. He controlled theirs as well as His desires and thus defeated Kamdev (lord of sexual pleasures) flat on his own turf.

Regards,

bhaktajan said:

• in a passive state (neutrality)
• in an active state (servitorship)
• as a friend (friendship)
• as a parent (parental affection)
• as a conjugal lover (amorous)

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On this list, there is no mention aof a bhava were god is father.
That is interesting, as this is the bhava most often cultivated by Christians.
Why is it missing in Hinduism?

On this list, there is no mention aof a bhava were god is father.

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as a parent (parental affection)

On this list, there is no mention aof a bhava were god is father.

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as a parent (parental affection)

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Interesting realisation I just had:

"as a parent (parental affection)" = two things:
a] bhava as a 'child of God' (God is the parent); and/or,
b] bhava as a 'parent of God'.

Now, I will think more on this and get back to you all in a couple of years,
Bhaktajan

Surya Deva said:

as a parent (parental affection)

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I thought that means you are the parent and God is the child (Yashoda/Krishna).

Marble said:

I thought that means you are the parent and God is the child (Yashoda/Krishna).

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Yes, that is how I thought of it too.

Yashoda/Krishna similar to Mary/Jesus.

But, FYI, Krishna had many children during his terrestrial advent while he lived in Dvarka. Krishna seperately married 18,000 women and had 10 sons from each wife.

bhaktajan said:

Krishna seperately married 18,000 women and had 10 sons from each wife.

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Isn't that rather symbolic?
I thought the Rasa-dance symbolizes that Krishna has countless energies/Shaktis (the Gopis) but all are ultimatelly only aspects of one Maha-Shakti (Radha).
Perhaps his marriages aand his sons are symbols too?
By the way, did Krishna have daughters too?
I think he had at least one, she got married to Arjuna.

As far as I am aware Hindus see god in many ways, including father and mother. Are you familiar with the famous Hindu aarti prayer?

Twameva mata cha pita twameva
Twameva bandhushcha sakha twameva
Twameva vidya dravinam twameva
Twameva sarvam mama deva deva

You are my mother and my father
You are my relative and friend
You are my knowledge and my wealth
You are my all O Lord of Lords.

Prayers - Pasadena Hindu Temple

Isn't that rather symbolic?

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Of course it is.

But Bhaktajan being a Hare Krishna follower takes everything literally in the puranas. These texts are highly symbolic and cannot be taken literally. Otherwise you would have to believe one day, gods and demons were having a an epic tug of war by pulling a giant snake wrapped around mount meru to churn the ocean

Marble said:

Isn't that rather symbolic?
I thought the Rasa-dance symbolizes that Krishna has countless energies/Shaktis (the Gopis) but all are ultimatelly only aspects of one Maha-Shakti (Radha).
Perhaps his marriages aand his sons are symbols too?
By the way, did Krishna have daughters too?
I think he had at least one, who got married with Arjuna.

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No it is not symbolic. We are viewing our own lives as individual parts & parcels of God. God is manifest as: the Field; each speck of creation; and, His own Personage.

All of the above is spectacularly gargantuanly vast. Krishna is God, God's manifest pastimes are undoubtly meant to be astounding, incomparable and unsurpassible.

And the very mention, recollection and the witnessing of such revelations usually fixes one's convictions as to the Almighty Majesty of God's personage. That was the purpose of Krishna's advent 5,000 years ago within the Royal Dynasty that had been ruling the world.

There is no reason to consider any thing written in the Vedic Literatures as symbolic . . . except the mentions that are delineated & defined as "Symbolic".

IE: The War of Kuruksetra is not a Symbolic event. It was an hisorical event.
OTHO, there are several "symbolic" references in the Gita as spoken by Krishna while explaining certain points-of-discussion, ie: the Banyam Tree etc.

When the Vedic scripture describe a symbolically expressed concept ---it is always stated the a metaphor is being employed.

The rasa-dance was attended by those great-souls that possess the requisite "prema-bhakti" so as to have the audience of Krishna. The Gopis are the childhood village friends of Radha ---these such relationships are the entourage of God. They are beyond the workings of "creation of the Cosmos". The Gopis and Radha et al, are Krishna's Divine entourage back from back in heaven (Goloka-Vrindavan).

Arjuna Married Krishna's sister Subhadra.
Did Krsna have daughter? = TBD.

BTW, In relation to temple worship & religious rituals & scriptural studies . . . all such paraphenalia is symbolic.

IWO, similar to we traveling to a destination . . . we follow each successive 'symbolic' milestone markers, so as the find our way to schedule rendevous ---we follow the road signs & mind the brake-lights & stop-signals & the petrol-tank indicators & the color of the clouds on the horizon ---to make educated guesses as to 'what to do next'.

"We are spirit souls in the material world" ---we must learn from life's lessons that all things material will pass and that the soul lives on; and we are seeking to return to perminence from whence we were originally in eternity.

Passing time in the material world,
Bhaktajan

Surya Deva said:

But Bhaktajan being a Hare Krishna follower takes everything literally in the puranas. These texts are highly symbolic and cannot be taken literally. Otherwise you would have to believe one day, gods and demons were having a an epic tug of war by pulling a giant snake wrapped around mount meru to churn the ocean

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Surya, I am repeating what is explained as Historical events, as taught by the parampara (disciplic succession).

To say other wise is to promote oneself as Guru.

Westerners conflat the Vedic conclusions with their Abrahamic traditions that subjugated the unwashed masses that have been used as fodder in the industrial complexs that the west's leaders have formed for themselves.

The Vedas are astondingly in-your face with an atitude that cannot be out done except by Atomic Bombs and other such puny attempts to create "World Peace".

Inre: the the churning of the Ocean by the Devas & Asuras ---the picture that is painted in that ancient pastime if a Juggernaut beyond concept ---it is much grander a pastime then a "Symbolic lesson" would ever require ---it would be like explains primary school level arithmatics by building a rocket ship to the moon.

The storys in the Vedas are real and they are astondingly beyond our existence.

They do not elevate us ---they are acts preformed by the Devatas of yore ---whose meanings are also beyond our preview. The very act of being informed of such wonders is enough of a lesson.

I guess that we humans and Furom posters just have not been privy to astonding acts?

BTW, The "Churning of Mt Sumeru" is depicted thoughout the carvings on the walls of Ankor Watt Cambodia. The "Churning of Mt Sumeru" event occurred at end of the Sixth Manu's reign 120,000,000 BCE

Lastly, the Puranas were recorded for the Best of Humans et al to read ---and to be left un-read by all others.

It must be remembered that human society is NOT ACTIVELY aiming for spiritual enlightment ---they are simply building better mouse-traps generation after generation. They are not practicing Yoga for liberation ---they have other engagements that take up all their time.

So you believe all of these statements to be true:

1) 18,000 women and had 10 sons from each wife(Krishna)
2) One day the god and demons churned the ocean by having a tug war with a giant snake wrapped around Mt Meru and churned the ocean
3) The sun is a planet that around the earth, and the moon is further out in space than the sun
4) That entire universe is hanging from the pole star like a chandalier

Just because you think everything written in Vedic literature, including the puranas must be taken literally. So we must throw sense out of the window to satisfy this condition? Ok....

Surya Deva said:

So you believe all of these statements to be true:

1) 18,000 women and had 10 sons from each wife.
2) One day the god and demons churned the ocean by having a tug war on a giant snake wrapped around Mt Meru and churned the ocean
3) The sun is a planet that around the earth, and the moon is further out in space than the sun!
4) That entire universe is hanging from the pole star like a chandalier

Just because you think everything written in Vedic literature, including the puranas must be taken literally. So we must throw sense out of the window to satisfy this condition? Ok....

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#4 is mis-stated.

This is a good start. Very incouraging.
One should start with the smaller facts-of-life first before trying to undrestand the grand stuff.

BTW, it's astonding to think that the Guys that destroyed the Twin Towers in NYC were the Wright Brothers in Kitty Hawk North Carolina.

BTW, it's astonding to think that the Architects & Bureucrats that designed the Twin Towers in NYC were destined to see every bit of it turn to dust.

BTW, it's astonding to think that so many american children born in the 1840s were destined to "throw sense out of the window" and run headlong into gunshots to their death.

Same goes for 3/4 on the advance world at the start of the 20th century ---I guess it depends on the good judgement of our leaders.

Domo arigato,
Bhaktajan

BTW, where DO YOU come up with your speculations.

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Investigator-News Reporters don't pay the rent hawking Vedic Revelations.

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The best way to find out if we really went to the moon is the fly up there your self and call us on your cell phone when you get their.
Otherwise don't question your elders or you'll appear to be a attention-craving Tycoon who thinks they too should be President of the USA.

Know body knows where Obama was born . . . yet,
Bhaktajan