Lehi on the Witness Stand

Merlin said:

You don't actually know that

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Know what?

dan said:

Know what?

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That there are no Mormons in hell.

dan said:

But they're so sure of themselves! They speak with such authority and conviction. They all seem to know so much more than me about my religion. Am I to believe they just can't argue with this evidence? That would mean they have to take me seriously! So, from now on when they spew forth their anti-Mormon crap I can remind them that they failed to measure up to the Book of Mormon challenge.

J. Golden Kimball was on a train once and everyone around him started talking about the Mormons. Someone said, "I'm going south to get away from the Mormons." Another said, "The south is good, but I'm going east to get away from them." They kept going on until Mr. Kimball couldn't keep his mouth shut. He got up and said, "Why don't you all just go to Hell where you know there won't be any Mormons."

Ha, ha, ha. Good ol' J. Golden Kimball.

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Out of curiosity, were you born into a Mormon family?

Merlin said:

I am probably one of the few non-Mormons who owns a copy of the book of Mormon, and has actually read it. I have asked several times of visiting evangelists if they will tell me what it contains that is not already in the existing Bible

I know there are lots of stories, but I'm talking about new fundamental truths. Clearly the Christian New Testament brought out new concepts and new ideas that were not there in the Jewish books that became our old Testament. but when I read the book of Mormon looking for new insights and for something that would take the religious world one step further forward, I found nothing new. Maybe you could tell us what there is that is worth our knowing?

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You'd be surprised how many non-Mormon shelves have copies of the Book of Mormon. That isn't to say that they read them, though.

Well, the purpose of the Book of Mormon is stated in the introduction - to convince both Jew and Gentile alike that Jesus is the Christ. It explains how the prophecy in Ezekiel 37:16-17 was fulfilled; it explains how the tribe of Joseph was perpetuated; it explains in further detail the covenants made with the house of Israel, as well as with the Gentiles. It testifies of Christ and His atoning sacrifice, helping us to better understand the how and the why. It explains the ordinances and covenants of the Gospel that are vague or altogether missing from the Bible, like the true mode of baptism, the problem of authority, and the true nature of our relationship with God. Above all it cements the proper adminsitration of the Gospel in todays world. It provides us with the framework for restoring the true church of Christ, with the proper structure of Prophets, Apostles and all other functionaries within the heirarchy of the Church as set forth by Christ in the New Testament.

Merlin said:

Out of curiosity, were you born into a Mormon family?

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No I was not. I was baptized when I was twenty after years of throwing my life away. I've seen everything a life of indulgence and debauchery can offer, and then I found the truth. I studied many different religions, from Taoism to Christianity to Judaism and on, and became a somewhat spiritual person. After a while I read the Book of Mormon and the Spirit truly entered my life for the first time. I got baptized sonn thereafter and have been happier than ever ever since.

dan said:

No I was not. I was baptized when I was twenty after years of throwing my life away. I've seen everything a life of indulgence and debauchery can offer, and then I found the truth. I studied many different religions, from Taoism to Christianity to Judaism and on, and became a somewhat spiritual person. After a while I read the Book of Mormon and the Spirit truly entered my life for the first time. I got baptized sonn thereafter and have been happier than ever ever since.

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Congratulations and good luck

Merlin said:

That there are no Mormons in hell.

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No, there are. It's just a little anecdote. Mormons rarely fight back against verbally, but this guy Kimball was notorious for cussing back at people. There will be more Mormons falling short of Celestial glory than enjoying it.

Merlin said:

Congratulations and good luck

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Thank you.

No one feels like taking a stab at my four pages of concrete evidence of the Book of Mormon? I find it humerous that so many people so concerned with helping me find the abundant evil inherent in my faith in Christ would balk at such a perfect opportunity to tear down my religion.

No one cares and no one wants to tear down your religion. Believe what you want and stop looking for a fight.

Radar said:

No one cares and no one wants to tear down your religion. Believe what you want and stop looking for a fight.

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People care enough to tear down our religion when we don't have that much evidence at the beginning of a thread. Believe what you want, but there is always somebody wanting to tear down our religion.

dan said:

No one feels like taking a stab at my four pages of concrete evidence of the Book of Mormon? I find it humerous that so many people so concerned with helping me find the abundant evil inherent in my faith in Christ would balk at such a perfect opportunity to tear down my religion.

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All right Dan,

Tho I am on record in this thread as having Mormon freinds, and like a lot about the family values and apparent happiness of many of your members, in the spirit of debate, I will say the Book of Mormon was dreamed up by Joseph Smith.

Indians of the North American continent are not the lost tribe of Israel. DNA testing has proven there is no close ties betweeen American Indians and Jews. American Indians are most closely related on the DNA level to the peoples of Asia, such as the areas of China and Mongolia. This can be shown very easily, even in your day to day life, without the need for the DNA. Find a friend of Indian descent and look at his/her teeth. The back of their teeth will be scooped out, while a caucasion, jew, black or any other race will be smooth. Then find an Asian friend and look at the back of his/her teeth. They will also be scooped out. There is a reason for this. They are genetic cousins, so to speak.

And re: the Book of Mormon being dreamed up by Joseph Smith, I say this because he could not produce the gold plates (prove me wrong here) and he couldn't accurately reproduce the story when asked.

Happy debating.

B.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

All right Dan,

Tho I am on record in this thread as having Mormon freinds, and like a lot about the family values and apparent happiness of many of your members, in the spirit of debate, I will say the Book of Mormon was dreamed up by Joseph Smith.

Indians of the North American continent are not the lost tribe of Israel. DNA testing has proven there is no close ties betweeen American Indians and Jews. American Indians are most closely related on the DNA level to the peoples of Asia, such as the areas of China and Mongolia. This can be shown very easily, even in your day to day life, without the need for the DNA. Find a friend of Indian descent and look at his/her teeth. The back of their teeth will be scooped out, while a caucasion, jew, black or any other race will be smooth. Then find an Asian friend and look at the back of his/her teeth. They will also be scooped out. There is a reason for this. They are genetic cousins, so to speak.

And re: the Book of Mormon being dreamed up by Joseph Smith, I say this because he could not produce the gold plates (prove me wrong here) and he couldn't accurately reproduce the story when asked.

Happy debating.

B.

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If you had read what jonny posted you would have seen the answer to your first argument.

If he said it in this thread then I missed it. I was able to find 2 responses from Johnny, and they were both in essence agreeing with the thread starter.

B.

It was in another thread started by Jayhawker Soule:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20730

He did show the plates to a group of people. He just didn't wave them around in everyone's face. Their testimonies are included in the front of the Book of Mormon.

OK, was unaware of the other thread, I will check it out. Where are the plates today?

B.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

All right Dan,

Tho I am on record in this thread as having Mormon freinds, and like a lot about the family values and apparent happiness of many of your members, in the spirit of debate, I will say the Book of Mormon was dreamed up by Joseph Smith.

Indians of the North American continent are not the lost tribe of Israel. DNA testing has proven there is no close ties betweeen American Indians and Jews. American Indians are most closely related on the DNA level to the peoples of Asia, such as the areas of China and Mongolia. This can be shown very easily, even in your day to day life, without the need for the DNA. Find a friend of Indian descent and look at his/her teeth. The back of their teeth will be scooped out, while a caucasion, jew, black or any other race will be smooth. Then find an Asian friend and look at the back of his/her teeth. They will also be scooped out. There is a reason for this. They are genetic cousins, so to speak.

And re: the Book of Mormon being dreamed up by Joseph Smith, I say this because he could not produce the gold plates (prove me wrong here) and he couldn't accurately reproduce the story when asked.

Happy debating.

B.

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I appreciate your willingness to indulge me. On to the debating.

You say DNA testing has proven no close ties between American Indians and Jews, which you conclude disproves the Book of Mormon. First I will address the DNA, and then the claim of the Book of Mormon.

The research cited finds four DNA haplogroups in ancient Native Americans that are also found in certain Asian blood. These haplogroups are by no means exclusive to these two races, but are more prevelant in them. This means that it is likely that Asia is responsible for most of the inhabiting of the Americas. The Book of Mormon had nothing to do with these studies, and scientists who noticed the accusations quickly warned people against drawing any conclusions whatsoever about what the data means. The accusers, of course, ignored them.

Studies done more recently than the one mentioned find a fifth group in Native Americans, nicknamed haplogroup X. I quote from a study done on haplogroup X:

"Haplogroup X was different. It was spotted by Torroni in a small number of European populations. So the Emory group set out to explore the marker's source. They analyzed blood samples from Native American, European, and Asian populations and reviewed published studies. "We fully expected to find it in Asia," like the other four Native American markers, says Brown.

"To their surprise, however, haplogroup X was only confirmed in the genes of a smattering of living people in Europe and Asia Minor, including Italians, Finns, and certain Israelis."

Other haplogroups, including groups 4 and 1C, are common in Jewish peoples.

Does this prove anything? Only that more research needs to be done. On to the Book of Mormon.

The problem with the hasty conclusion is that the Book of Mormon nowhere claism that the three groups that came over from the middle east were the sole, or even principle, inhabiters of the Americas. As more evidence is extrapolated from the Book of Mormon it seems to point to other groups already being there in large numbers.

As far as Joseph Smith being able to reproduce the story at will, that only proves to me more that he didn't make it up. If he had it would have been a little better memorized.

I'd like to go back and address more of the questions put forward to Lehi on the witness stand, but in doing so I prefer to go back to the original source. Hugh Nibley, in his excellent book Lehi in the Desert, Chapter IV, Section III, concludes with "Lehi on the Witness Stand." His original text follows. It's my own formatting for easier reading, but the text is his:

What is your name? Don't you know there is no such personal name? (A shard is produced from Lehi's time and it bears the name Lehi, not an uncommon one.)

Where did you live at the time? What do you mean the "Land of Jerusalem"? Don't you mean the city? (Defense produces an ancient letter showing that the territory around the city was all known as the land of Jerusalem.)

Who governed Jerusalem? What kind of men were they? What did you do to turn them against you?

Where did you get this great wealth your son talks about? How did you happen to learn Egyptian-wasn't that a waste of time? Why didn't you learn Babylonian, a language much nearer to your own? What was all the trouble about in your family?

I have quite a list of names here--your purported family and descendants: Do you expect the court to believe these are genuine? If this is a genuine list, why does it contain no Baal names?

You said you had dreams: about what? A river? What kind of river? What is this weird "mist of darkness"? Did you ever see anything like it when you were awake? (Dozens of witnesses testify) Don't you think a dream is a pretty slim pretext for leaving your home and country?

In which direction did you flee? How could you build up a big caravan without being aprehended? What did you take with you? How did you travel--on foot? How did you manage to survive with women and children in a terrible desert? How did you escape being killed off by raiders? Don't you know that desert was very dangerous?

What did you eat? Did you march continually? When you camped, what was the firs thing you did? What kind of altar? What sort of game did you hunt? Where? How? WHo did the hunting? Your son made a bow, you say; where in desolate Arabia could he find wood for that?

What right had you to go around giving new names to places? Do you think any sane person would give a river and its valley different names? (Roar of protest from Arabs in the audience)

Whoever called the Red Sea a fountain? Don't you know there are no rivers in Arabia?

This little speech you gave your sons on the river bank--isn't it a bit overdone? (More protest from the Bedouins.) Don't you think it rather silly to describe a valley as "firm and steadfast"?

Where did your son's stay when they went back to Jerusalem? What about this cave?

Aren't metal plates rather clumsy writing material to keep records on?

Aren't fifty men a ridiculously small garrison for a city like Jerusalem?

You describe nocturnal meetings between the elders and the commandant: Wouldn't it be much more sensible to hold meetings in the daytime?

Do you want the court to believe that you actually carried grain with you on this long and exhausting journey?

Are you trying to tell the court that you found a paradise on the southernmost rim of the most desolate land on earth?

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Some of these have already been dealt with, but I'll be looking at the ones that remain. If anyone has any requests, I'll move them to the top of my list. In the mean time, I'd like to address the issue of Lehi's Bedouin poetry, found in the above monologue as the following lines:

This little speech you gave your sons on the river bank--isn't it a bit overdone? (More protest from the Bedouins.) Don't you think it rather silly to describe a valley as "firm and steadfast"?

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The scriptural references in question are found in First Nephi 2:7-11, (with special emphasis on section in italics):

7 And it came to pass that he built an altar of stones, and made an offering unto the Lord, and gave thanks unto the Lord our God.

8 And it came to pass that he called the name of the river, Laman, and it emptied into the Red Sea; and the valley was in the borders near the mouth thereof.

9 And when my father saw that the waters of the river emptied into the fountain of the Red Sea, he spake unto Laman, saying: O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness!

10 And he also spake unto Lemuel: O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord!

11 Now this he spake because of the stiffneckedness of Laman and Lemuel; for behold they did murmur in many things against their father, because he was a visionary man, and had led them out of the land of Jerusalem, to leave the land of their inheritance, and their gold, and their silver, and their precious things, to perish in the wilderness. And this they said he had done because of the foolish imaginations of his heart.[/QUOTE]

Hugh Nibley lists seven criteria of a certain type of Semitic poetry (Nibley's sources listed in brackets):

1) They are Brunnen- or Quellenlieder, as the Germans call them, that is, songs inspired by the sight of water gushing from a spring or running down a valley. [I. Goldziher, Abhandlungen zur arabischen Philologie (Leiden, 1896), I, 58.]

2) They are addressed to one or (usually) two traveling companions. [P. Cersoy, "L'Apologue de la Vigne," Rev. Biblique (1899), 54f, n. 7.]

3) They praise the beauty and the excellence of the scene, calling it to the attention of the hearer as an object lesson. [Goldziher, op. cit., I, 67-71.]

4) The hearer is urged to be like the thing he beholds. [Gust. Richter, "Zur Entstehungsgeschichte der altarabischen Qaside," Deutsche Morgenland. Ges Ztschr. 92 (1939), p. 558.]

5) The poems are recited extempore on the spot and with great feeling. [Goldziher, op. cit., pp. 59, 72-75.]

6) They are very short, each couplet being a complete poem in itself. [Brockelmann, gesech. d. Arab. Lit. (Leipzig, 1909,) p. 12.]

7) One verse must be followed by its "brother," making a perfectly matched pair. [Ibn Qutaiba, Muqaddamatu Kitab-i-sh-Shi're wa sh-Shu'ara (Introduction au Livre de la Poesie et des Poetes (ed. Gaudefroy-Demombynes, Paris, 1947), Pt. 23; cf. Goldziher, p. 74.]

It appears that Lehi's couplet qualifies for all seven criteria, but you're welcome to debate it.

I am a new member to religiousformums.com and your post was the first I have visited. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Looks like this type of medium will reach all those who would otherwise never step foot into a church of any kind. We need to share our faith and witness unto the world that the Fullnes of the Gospel of Jesus Christ has once again been restored to the Earth. I testify of this by the power of the Holy Ghost and in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to all that read this. The Book of Mormon is another witness of Jesus Christ along with the Bibile (as long as the King James version is translated correctly). These two witnesses , the Book of Mormon and the Bible testify of Christ and his ministry to both the old world (Jerusalem) and the new world (Americas). All who read this hear me now read the Book of Mormon yourselves and see if it does not prick your heart. I stand as a witness with Dan here on this subject that what he has said is true and correct.

Michael Corbett

In reply to MdrnSzdWhtGuy: Joseph Smith discovered the golden plates in A.D. 1823, by the help of angel Moroni, the last person to write on the plates and also the one who hid the plates in A.D. 421, in what is now called, the Hill Cumorah in Palmyra, New York. After the plates were translated into english, by the gift and power of God, the plates were then taken up into heaven by angel Moroni.

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