Who is the true church?

may · Sep 28, 2005

Halcyon said:
If we're going with that logic Kate, why don't you have male genitals, and why don't I have female ones? Does God have both? After all we were both made in his image.
God doesn't use light to see, as evidenced by him existing before he created light, what possible use could God possibly have for eyes?

Anyhoo, i was being more cryptic than that, which Merlin got. Does God have to have a perspective? Again, as Merlin says surely he has bigger things to think about than little Joey going to church on the wrong day, or Billy eating the wrong foods.

From a logical point of view, as long as you worship YHWH, he should be as happy as Larry. Its only when human politics comes into the fray that confusion begins.

"Faithful slave class" *shudders*...... May, does that not fill you with a sense of fear? Why does a God need a slave?

LOL
"Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.......... matthew 24;45-47 no it does not fill me with fear because the slave is happy when the master(jesus christ) arrives, and then the slave is given great responsibility ,and instead of being starving they are spiritualy feed with lots of filling spiritual food.

Merlin · Sep 29, 2005

may said:
LOL
"Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.......... matthew 24;45-47 no it does not fill me with fear because the slave is happy when the master(jesus christ) arrives, and then the slave is given great responsibility ,and instead of being starving they are spiritualy feed with lots of filling spiritual food.

Halcyon, if I were you, I would not try to understand the world after Armageddon. Jw do see mankind as sort of automatons living in some kind of utopian world where everybody carries on as they are now, but in peace and harmony. we all apparently do the same jobs, even though more than half of these jobs have disappeared (soldiers, policeman, military manufacturing, etc).

After about four decades of study, spending months in some cases positively joining the congregations and lessons of most of the religious traditions, my overwhelming impression is that most of them have an extremely trivial God in their mind. He cares about the most insignificant trivia. As you said, what day of the week we attend church; what we call him; what we eat and drink; what words we use in our prayers; the list is endless.but, they are all very human imposed restrictions. They also love to endow their own priests with magical powers (the laying on of hands to transfer spirit etc)

I have never understood why a God as great as God clearly is, would want to be worshipped? Ask yourself, if you were ruler of the world, would you want to be worshipped? I would not. Respected, yes. Listen to, yes. Even obeyed, yes. but worshipped? I think not.

Halcyon · Sep 29, 2005

Merlin said:
Halcyon, if I were you, I would not try to understand the world after Armageddon. Jw do see mankind as sort of automatons living in some kind of utopian world where everybody carries on as they are now, but in peace and harmony. we all apparently do the same jobs, even though more than half of these jobs have disappeared (soldiers, policeman, military manufacturing, etc).

After about four decades of study, spending months in some cases positively joining the congregations and lessons of most of the religious traditions, my overwhelming impression is that most of them have an extremely trivial God in their mind. He cares about the most insignificant trivia. As you said, what day of the week we attend church; what we call him; what we eat and drink; what words we use in our prayers; the list is endless.but, they are all very human imposed restrictions. They also love to endow their own priests with magical powers (the laying on of hands to transfer spirit etc)

I have never understood why a God as great as God clearly is, would want to be worshipped? Ask yourself, if you were ruler of the world, would you want to be worshipped? I would not. Respected, yes. Listen to, yes. Even obeyed, yes. but worshipped? I think not.

I don't think its fair to slur the beliefs of others Merlin, but you are entitled to your opinion.

As for the rest, i've answered in your other thread.

wild20 · Sep 29, 2005

I peronally believe the SDA church is the closest thing. I am a member and have looked into this churches teachings in depth. I know, the first thing you think is David Koresh, but its not true, he took a wrong turn when he left the church. We are not a "cult", but we do have very bible based teachings. We are also very conservative, and we also believe that Saturday is the Sabbath. Why? I will get into a debate about that later. But it is because of what the bible says.

Merlin · Sep 30, 2005

Halcyon said:
I don't think its fair to slur the beliefs of others Merlin, but you are entitled to your opinion.

As for the rest, i've answered in your other thread.

You are right, I am very sorry. The first paragraph should not have been written, as it was my personal opinion about an individual group.

The rest of it though was not specific to any religious tradition. It was a statement that in all of the decades of my study with various groups, they do seem to reduce the requirement that they believe God wants from us to really trivial things. They do think He cares whether we eat this or drink that; whether we wear this type of clothing or do not; even sometimes whether we listen to certain music or don't listen to certain music.

There is a point to this whole thread. All over the world, there are young people turning away from religion. They just cannot find it credible. Maybe if we set them more reasonable objectives, and talked to them about a God with more sensible requirements, we might find they would be contented in a religious tradition.

Before anybody leaps on me and says that we cannot invent a God that is different, why not? You will did! You all have your own version, why can we not have one that makes sense.

may · Sep 30, 2005

so getting backto who is the true church would you not agree that Jesus mentioned a faithful slave class , matthew 24;45-47if a slave is faithful i would think he would be doing his masters will and instructions ,would you not agree? but what i find interesting is thefact that Jesus said that if he finds him faithful he would appoint him over many things so i suppose the oposite would apply ,if Jesus did not find him faithful he would not be given any more responsibilityand they would be no dought given the sackand thrown outside which brings to mind the verses in
(Matthew 24:48-51

But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, My master is delaying, and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be..... oh dear fancy turning on those who are faithful fellow slaves ,so it seems that this faithful slave class which was set up in pentecost 33 C.E to feed the domestics would be inspected to see if they were doing their job right

"It is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God."1 Peter 4:17as one of JW it is my belief that this inspection was in 1914 ,1914 is the year that Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment ,this date for Jesus kingship is based on bible prophecy and bible chronology but that is for another thread ithink.any way,it seems that some among this faithful slave class thought their master was delaying

many were disappointed and a few became embittered. Some of these turned to beating their former brothers verbally no wonder they were called evil slaves

whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be...matthew 8;12yes they could have been part of the sons of the kingdom but not any more out they go yes it is mybelief that former members of the faithful slave class have been cast outbecause they thought Jesus was delaying in other words they did not stay around to be given more understanding about the bible for these last days which we are living in now.

(Daniel 12:9) And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end

Merlin · Sep 30, 2005

may said:
so getting backto who is the true church would you not agree that Jesus mentioned a faithful slave class , matthew 24;45-47if a slave is faithful i would think he would be doing his masters will and instructions ,would you not agree? but what i find interesting is thefact that Jesus said that if he finds him faithful he would appoint him over many things so i suppose the oposite would apply ,if Jesus did not find him faithful he would not be given any more responsibilityand they would be no dought given the sackand thrown outside which brings to mind the verses in
(Matthew 24:48-51

But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, My master is delaying, and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be..... oh dear fancy turning on those who are faithful fellow slaves ,so it seems that this faithful slave class which was set up in pentecost 33 C.E to feed the domestics would be inspected to see if they were doing their job right

"It is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God."1 Peter 4:17as one of JW it is my belief that this inspection was in 1914 ,1914 is the year that Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment ,this date for Jesus kingship is based on bible prophecy and bible chronology but that is for another thread ithink.any way,it seems that some among this faithful slave class thought their master was delaying

many were disappointed and a few became embittered. Some of these turned to beating their former brothers verbally no wonder they were called evil slaves

whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be...matthew 8;12yes they could have been part of the sons of the kingdom but not any more out they go yes it is mybelief that former members of the faithful slave class have been cast outbecause they thought Jesus was delaying in other words they did not stay around to be given more understanding about the bible for these last days which we are living in now.

(Daniel 12:9) And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end

If 1914 was the beginning of this end period, and the period was supposed to last for one generation, what is the very last date that would be a credible time to accept that Armageddon might not be going to happen when you thought?

Merlin · Sep 30, 2005

may said:
What happened to that one true congregation? Did it become the mighty Catholic Church? Did it evolve into the denominational, fragmented Protestant church system that we see today? Or did something else happen?

consider what Jesus Christ himself said would happen. Jesus expected his congregation to disappear from view and that he would allow such a sad situation to continue for centuries

Identifying his congregation with "the kingdom of the heavens," he said: "The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds? He said to them, An enemy, a man, did this. They said to him, Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them? He said, No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse."Matthew 13:24-30

Jesus explained that he was "the sower." "The fine seed" pictured his genuine disciples. His "enemy" was Satan the Devil. "The weeds" were counterfeit Christians who infiltrated the early Christian congregation. He said that he would let "the wheat" and "the weeds" grow together until "the harvest," which would come at "a conclusion of a system of things." (Matthew 13:37-43)

How would you define the three main differences in belief between your Christian sect and (for example) Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Baptist?

I know you have different choices of words, and choose to call God Jehovah, but forget semantic differences, what are the main differences in fundamental faith?

Aqualung · Sep 30, 2005

Merlin said:
How would you define the three main differences in belief between your Christian sect and (for example) Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Baptist?

I know you have different choices of words, and choose to call God Jehovah, but forget semantic differences, what are the main differences in fundamental faith?

They're nontrinitarian, for one.

Merlin · Sep 30, 2005

Scott1 said:
Again.... this is not a difficult question.... I don't know of any church that "ruled" for 1300yrs.... what is so difficult with giving a straight answer>?

Actually, there is a church that has ruled for 1400 years. It is called Islam.

Even if you are not a believer, you must accept that the Qu'ran has never been rewritten or modified.

Merlin · Sep 30, 2005

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Love this debate. Which church is the one true church? Seems all the answers are from various sects of the Christian Church.

What if Islam is the one true path to God and eternal life? What if Judaism is the answer. What if it is Zoroastrianism? What if some of the Native American naturalistic religions had it right? The debate is endless, and probably pointless, tho no doubt entertaining.

And besides, anyone who has seen the famous Southpark episodes on the subject know without a doubt that only Mormons go to Heaven and Japanese people have no soul.

Seems to me in my discussions with various religious folks, that they are all convinced that their own particular group has it right, and every other person from other groups has it wrong. Mel Gibson doesn't even think his own wife is going to Heaven because she isn't a Catholic. Mel must be correct, of course, cause he made "The Passion" and it made a lot of money in theatres.

My wife and I joke that Heaven is going to be a lonely place because my parents seem convinced that only the 90 or so members of their little rural Babtist church are going to Heaven. There can never be an answer to the question posed in the origins of this thread, tho the debate en route is certainly fascinating and tells us a great deal about the participants in the discussion.

B.

I am not Mormon, but we must be fair. They do not say that only Mormons go to heaven. They have very carefully spelled out to us (because I did not know) that they believed everybody is given a chance in the afterlife.

I believe (and perhaps somebody from that faith would confirm) that they believe everybody in the afterlife is given the chance to accept Christianity. Failure to do that would mean you have got to return to Earth to have another try. I think that is how it was explained.

I assume this means that devout Moslem religious leaders, Buddhist monks, etc would all have to accept that their religious life was totally wasted and they should have been Christian. I hope I have interpreted correctly what I have been told.

Scott1 · Sep 30, 2005

Merlin said:
Actually, there is a church that has ruled for 1400 years. It is called Islam.

You were refering to Islam.... errrr... ok.

Even if you are not a believer, you must accept that the Qu'ran has never been rewritten or modified.

Neither has Moby Dick... what's your point?

Merlin · Sep 30, 2005

Scott1 said:
You were refering to Islam.... errrr... ok.
Neither has Moby Dick... what's your point?

I am not a Moslem, I was just commenting on a particular reply that asked if anybody knew of any church that had ruled for more than 1200 years. So I answered the question. Yes there is one. I did not say it had validity, I did not endorse it, nor did I condemn it. I just responded to the question. It is a valid response, surely.

After all, there are hundreds of millions of good people who live their lives to the Moslem religion rules. You cannot surely be so arrogant that you dismiss hundreds of millions of people's belief as though it did not exist.

Scott1 · Sep 30, 2005

Merlin said:
I am not a Moslem, I was just commenting on a particular reply that asked if anybody knew of any church that had ruled for more than 1200 years.

No... you commented on a question you misread... the poster later admitted he was refering to the Catholic Church and I was attempted to correct his math... your comment about Islam, however correct, was off-topic.

After all, there are hundreds of millions of good people who live their lives to the Moslem religion rules. You cannot surely be so arrogant that you dismiss hundreds of millions of people's belief as though it did not exist.

Ummmm.... don't know how you got that from my comment.... I believe the "plan" of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with Christians and Jews, they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

Merlin · Sep 30, 2005

Scott1 said:
No... you commented on a question you misread... the poster later admitted he was refering to the Catholic Church and I was attempted to correct his math... your comment about Islam, however correct, was off-topic.
Ummmm.... don't know how you got that from my comment.... I believe the "plan" of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with Christians and Jews, they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

Sorry Scott, I was obviously wrong. I misinterpreted what you were saying. After all, it is quite rare to find a Roman Catholic who believes that a Moslem has an equal chance of going to heaven as a Roman Catholic. Well said.

Scott1 · Sep 30, 2005

Merlin said:
Sorry Scott, I was obviously wrong. I misinterpreted what you were saying.

No problem, my friend.

After all, it is quite rare to find a Roman Catholic who believes that a Moslem has an equal chance of going to heaven as a Roman Catholic. Well said.

Sorry to hear that... it shouldn't be hard... it is an official teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (#841).

Merlin · Sep 30, 2005

Scott1 said:
You were refering to Islam.... errrr... ok.
Neither has Moby Dick... what's your point?

On a different point though, I am not sure that putting the Qu'ran and Moby Dick in the same league is very polite (or true). Even as a non-Muslim, I have a copy of the Qu'an and find nothing whatsoever in it that would offend any Christian.

Scott1 · Sep 30, 2005

Merlin said:
On a different point though, I am not sure that putting the Qu'ran and Moby Dick in the same league is very polite (or true).

My point was the fact that that Koran has not been rewritten or modified means nothing to me... I respect it because I respect the people who worship with it.... nothing more, nothing less.

Even as a non-Muslim, I have a copy of the Qu'an and find nothing whatsoever in it that would offend any Christian.

I have several...

Snowbear · Sep 30, 2005

Merlin said:
On a different point though, I am not sure that putting the Qu'ran and Moby Dick in the same league is very polite (or true). Even as a non-Muslim, I have a copy of the Qu'an and find nothing whatsoever in it that would offend any Christian.

Keep lookin'

Scott1 · Sep 30, 2005

StewpidLoser said:
Keep lookin'

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