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Training wheels

S

Sikh

Member
Should the Guru Granth be thought of and taught as something equivalent to training wheels?

That is something which is useful but needs to be disregarded once one can ride and begin the path to becoming dead while alive.


Are we as Sikhs following the mistakes of other religions by placing final destination on the Guru Granth?
 
S

Sikh

Member
:sleep:

...Ok

Lets try a harder one.

Could it really have been Professor Plum, with the candle stick in the cellar?
 
Breathe

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
It was Miss Scarlet, with the wrench, in the Library.


I'm afraid I'd need you to expand before I gave you this manmukh's opinion, bhai. Can you explain a little more for me? :)
 
S

Sikh

Member
Well the detailed explanation is that it couldn't have been the Reverend Green, he was seen by the kitchen. :drool:

:facepalm:..........:no:

Oh, the easy question?:drool:


Are we falling into a practice of devotion for the Guru Granth instead of Ik Onkar?
 
Breathe

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
That reverend and his stomach. :D


It can give that impression. Outsiders often think that Sikhi worship SGGS, bhai. However, I don't think that is really the case; I am more concerned about Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee-veneration and non-Sikh practices (i.e., someone on here told me that they know someone who is Sikh, whom they saw offer food to Gurū Nānak!) than I am of Gurū Granth Sāhib ji, as am I of how Sikhi Dharam seems to be suffering from so much infighting at the moment; so many ready to say "tum Sikhi nahi!" to one another.

Monay seem to be suffering a lot from that.
 
S

Sikh

Member
...offering food to Guru Nanak..

Do they know he hates Vanilla casserole? But really, who doesn't? :drool:


So what your saying is forget about learning to fly, they seem to have forgotten how to climb? :sad4:

Do you think more schools would stop this kind of thing?
 
Breathe

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
What do you mean by more schools bhai? Denominations? Or more education for the young singhis and singhnis?
 
Breathe

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
That would definitely help, I think. :)

But we need to make sure the people teaching know about it too. This is the only downfall of no priests: Sikhi Dharam can have a lot of people who know only a bit about their religion, but very few who know the deeper, more mystic side of it, and somehow it's giving rise to things that the Gurūs would have disliked, such as giving offerings to Gurū Nānak as was mentioned.

Hopefully in time more will know about their faith in detail, though. :)


For this, I think things like Khālsā Camp are a God-send.


Khalsa Camp 2010 - Discover the Spirit Within!
The S.I.K.H Camp 2010!
Sikh Student Camp
Sikhi Camp - Sikhi Camp 2011!


I feel such things need to be started up and encouraged among the young, so that they can grow up and know more about their faith. For the adults, well, study study study. :)
 
WayFarer

WayFarer

Rogue Scholar
Sikh said:
Should the Guru Granth be thought of and taught as something equivalent to training wheels?

That is something which is useful but needs to be disregarded once one can ride and begin the path to becoming dead while alive.


Are we as Sikhs following the mistakes of other religions by placing final destination on the Guru Granth?
Click to expand...

Good morning Sikh JI, I would like to weigh in on this one with your indulgence.

The SGGS (as are most religious texts) a guide or a map. They point a way to a destination but you are the one who has to do something to get there. They are support and guidance. They are reminders of love and the strength that peace/compassion and belief/faith can provide. Poetry to lift the soul and delight the eye. Concepts to stretch the imagination and goals to strive towards... but are they needed once you "get" that.
No.
Guru Nanak Ji did not need the SGGS.
Jesus did not need the New Testament.
Well then why does anyone else? Because most do not live the lives of those teachers, but if either of them thought that it was a book that was needed to be your daily guide to God they would have taken pen in hand and wrote it down. Instead they lived their lives and said 'follow this example'.
I had a dream earlier this week where there was a spiritual teacher and each student was allowed to ask one question. After listening to some of the questions and being in the presence of the teacher for a while it was my turn to ask a question. I asked what what that teachers religion. The teacher said "compassion". I fill that is the primary message of most religions and their books. Compassion and appreciation (though as I write this I think it could be all boiled down to "love"). Compassion for all of Creation and appreciation for its Creator.
So 'no', I don't think it is something you have to hold on to to life the life that it points towards, but it can be a comfort or a compass whenever you start to go astray.
 
S

Sikh

Member
Odion said:
That would definitely help, I think. :)

But we need to make sure the people teaching know about it too. This is the only downfall of no priests: Sikhi Dharam can have a lot of people who know only a bit about their religion, but very few who know the deeper, more mystic side of it, and somehow it's giving rise to things that the Gurūs would have disliked, such as giving offerings to Gurū Nānak as was mentioned.

Hopefully in time more will know about their faith in detail, though. :)


For this, I think things like Khālsā Camp are a God-send.


Khalsa Camp 2010 - Discover the Spirit Within!
The S.I.K.H Camp 2010!
Sikh Student Camp
Sikhi Camp - Sikhi Camp 2011!


I feel such things need to be started up and encouraged among the young, so that they can grow up and know more about their faith. For the adults, well, study study study. :)
Click to expand...


Sorry for the slow reply.

All of what your saying is about camps is good, but I can't help but feeling that the Gurdwara should be the school. It is after all the House of the Teacher, and in imitation of Guru Nanak's house where people came to learn from him.

Should a greater effort be made to make a Gurdwara into a open university instead of a place to worship as is common now?

As Guru Nanak once asked, point my feet where Ik Onkar is not? I understand that before the British occupied India there used to be lengthy explanation and discussion times during Kirtan but the British banned that and imposed only Kirtan with no explanation or discussion. A big part of the Punjab freedom movement was about reclaiming Gurdwaras from this ban, only once that was achieved, the practice of only listionaing to kirtan had firmly been established.

I think its time to roll back the clock.
 
S

Sikh

Member
WayFarer said:
Good morning Sikh JI, I would like to weigh in on this one with your indulgence.

The SGGS (as are most religious texts) a guide or a map. They point a way to a destination but you are the one who has to do something to get there. They are support and guidance. They are reminders of love and the strength that peace/compassion and belief/faith can provide. Poetry to lift the soul and delight the eye. Concepts to stretch the imagination and goals to strive towards... but are they needed once you "get" that.
No.
Guru Nanak Ji did not need the SGGS.
Jesus did not need the New Testament.
Well then why does anyone else? Because most do not live the lives of those teachers, but if either of them thought that it was a book that was needed to be your daily guide to God they would have taken pen in hand and wrote it down. Instead they lived their lives and said 'follow this example'.
I had a dream earlier this week where there was a spiritual teacher and each student was allowed to ask one question. After listening to some of the questions and being in the presence of the teacher for a while it was my turn to ask a question. I asked what what that teachers religion. The teacher said "compassion". I fill that is the primary message of most religions and their books. Compassion and appreciation (though as I write this I think it could be all boiled down to "love"). Compassion for all of Creation and appreciation for its Creator.
So 'no', I don't think it is something you have to hold on to to life the life that it points towards, but it can be a comfort or a compass whenever you start to go astray.
Click to expand...

By all means brother, just as we all do with the indulgence of Ik Onkar. I understand what your saying about Love, but I'm asking a broader question--have the rituals and practices of the Current Gurdwara turned the Gurdwara into a Temple, with the Idol being the Guru Granth? And the offerring being Money?
 
WayFarer

WayFarer

Rogue Scholar
Sikh said:
...have the rituals and practices of the Current Gurdwara turned the Gurdwara into a Temple, with the Idol being the Guru Granth? And the offerring being Money?
Click to expand...
On that I would say most definitely so. That and getting tied up the details of who exactly a Sikh is and what they must do and/or look like. They reach far beyond the SGGS to reach conclusions that lead to exclusions. Ego has unfortunately been allowed to run rampant. It is much the same in many religions/paths. Those who don't truly understand the founders teachings instead grasp at trappings.
 
Breathe

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Sikh said:
Sorry for the slow reply.

All of what your saying is about camps is good, but I can't help but feeling that the Gurdwara should be the school. It is after all the House of the Teacher, and in imitation of Guru Nanak's house where people came to learn from him.
Click to expand...
That is true - but we need to expect that many who would teach at local gurdwāre, at the moment are probably not as knowledgeable as the people who are in the camps.

Should a greater effort be made to make a Gurdwara into a open university instead of a place to worship as is common now?
Click to expand...
Definitely. :)

I think its time to roll back the clock.
Click to expand...
As do I, as do I!


Having a place to visit the Gurū is great, but education is needed too - about history, philosophy, theology, and why certain things are rejected, or practices the Gurūs oppose may grow, and I fear this is a possibility. For example, I've once visited gurdwārā to be greeted with someone nearby: "*tut* Gora [vich? I forget this word] gurdwara? Gore sikhi nahi." My very limited Punjabi meant I understood what was being said. The person who said it was rather young, though. To be honest, I found it quite humorous but it got me wondering if such views could grow, because I've had two such cases - both were young though, so I'm hoping they will grow out of it.

I've seen gurdwāre can often become almost segregated, not by gender or race, but people stop talking and become involved in petty squabbles, and you can sometimes find "jatt" and "khatri" gurdwāre

I feel such things need to be remedied before we can teach in them. I think a start is making a more social environment: langar is for that, but many feel as though you cannot stay in there too long. So, we end up seeing people talking in the main entrance instead... perhaps an additional room would be useful, one where people can stay and chat so there are not thirty aunties standing next to radiators? :D
 
S

Sikh

Member
Odion said:
That is true - but we need to expect that many who would teach at local gurdwāre, at the moment are probably not as knowledgeable as the people who are in the camps.


Definitely. :)


As do I, as do I!


Having a place to visit the Gurū is great, but education is needed too - about history, philosophy, theology, and why certain things are rejected, or practices the Gurūs oppose may grow, and I fear this is a possibility. For example, I've once visited gurdwārā to be greeted with someone nearby: "*tut* Gora [vich? I forget this word] gurdwara? Gore sikhi nahi." My very limited Punjabi meant I understood what was being said. The person who said it was rather young, though. To be honest, I found it quite humorous but it got me wondering if such views could grow, because I've had two such cases - both were young though, so I'm hoping they will grow out of it.

I've seen gurdwāre can often become almost segregated, not by gender or race, but people stop talking and become involved in petty squabbles, and you can sometimes find "jatt" and "khatri" gurdwāre

I feel such things need to be remedied before we can teach in them. I think a start is making a more social environment: langar is for that, but many feel as though you cannot stay in there too long. So, we end up seeing people talking in the main entrance instead... perhaps an additional room would be useful, one where people can stay and chat so there are not thirty aunties standing next to radiators? :D
Click to expand...


:yes:

Although I Do wonder how such can occur without permanent teachers or a grading system of understanding.
 
S

Sikh

Member
WayFarer said:
On that I would say most definitely so. That and getting tied up the details of who exactly a Sikh is and what they must do and/or look like. They reach far beyond the SGGS to reach conclusions that lead to exclusions. Ego has unfortunately been allowed to run rampant. It is much the same in many religions/paths. Those who don't truly understand the founders teachings instead grasp at trappings.
Click to expand...



:yes:

But what would you recommend brother?
 
WayFarer

WayFarer

Rogue Scholar
Sikh said:
But what would you recommend brother?
Click to expand...

I am not sure what course can be taken. The reason those in power have power is because others agree they do. I would recommend ignoring them. Spread the message and love of the Gurus by your actions and words. Be accepting as they were and know that they would preach against those who now seek to divide.
Sounds like the SGGS has just that sort of people in mind. Those who cling, without understanding. Those who act, but without compassion.
 
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