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if a god means a servant for God so if you concidered Moses to be a god, Jesus to be a god then Mohammed will be a god too and all other prophets will be gods too.HOGCALLER said:The Truth, please answer my questions: Is or is not Moses a god? Is or is not Jesus also a god?
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HOGCALLER said:The Truth,
Even though my last reply was longer than I intended it to be, I find that I have more to say and much more to ask of you.
HOGCALLER said:Within the Holy Scriptures, the Bible, I find things that are required of true worshippers and things that are a part of true religion. Yet I find no mention of them in the Quran and no explanation of why they are no longer part of true worship and true religion. Instead I find the Quran saying that what is now required is 180 degrees opposite to what the Bible always said. I have yet to be shown anything in the Quran explaining why it is no longer necessary to believe and to practice those past things.
HOGCALLER said:That also is very unlike the way that the Bible dealt with changes, viz. circumcision, the Law and the introduction of the possibility for some humans to go to heaven. Can you see why I might have my doubts about the Quran actually being the same message and the same teachings?
HOGCALLER said:Within the Holy Scriptures, the Bible, there are many prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled yet the Quran does not do as did Jesus.
HOGCALLER said:As an example of what I mean let me refer you to
HOGCALLER said:Genesis 3:15, the first prophecy in the Bible. What can you tell me about that prophecy? That prophecy is referred to many times in both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. What does the Quran say about Genesis 3:15 and its fulfillment? I cannot find anything about it. Do you see why I have my doubts about the Quran?
HOGCALLER said:Proverbs 4:18 says: But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established. That means that true worship will always be changing and progressing but it does not mean that the process involves complete abandonment and replacement (Nullification or Abrogation) of the basic truths of true worship and true religion that preceded those progressive changes. In other words I do not reject the Quran just because it is different or newer but because of the ways in which it is different and new.
HOGCALLER said:The truth is always true and it never changes. Each time there have been major progressive steps taken in true worship God made it plainly clear that such a change was taking place by undeniable demonstrations of power and glory. Also those changes were clearly understood to be tied into the outworking of the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15. There was never a complete abandonment and a total about-face in direction such as called for by the Quran. Where are the undeniable demonstrations that I would expect to accompany the changes found in the Quran? Where is the proof and explanation in the Quran as to why I must make an about-face in my beliefs? Where in the Quran is the continuity and unity of prophecy, message and teaching?
HOGCALLER said:On the other hand and as I mentioned before, to prove my position all I must do is point to the history of true worship contained in the Bible. In the Bible there is continuity and unity of prophecy, message and teaching from Genesis to Revelation. And when there were changes that were hard to accept (for example circumcision and replacing the Law of Moses with the Law of the Christ, the royal law) the Bible steps in with an explanation of why the change was needed and showed where the new was better than the old and where the antitype completely fulfilled the type. It was not Abrogation but increased understanding and progressive light. As best I can tell at this point in my reading of the Quran, Abrogation and Do it because I said so! and Do it so you do not suffer in the Hereafter! is the only explanation offered. Am I wrong?
HOGCALLER said:The Truth, let me ask you one more question. Where will King David live in the future?
in this link you will find alot of information about David and if you have more questions about him so please ask.HOGCALLER said:
Is this your personal understanding brother Ezzedean or you have a source to support your claim like a scholar or any tafseer?Ezzedean said:First of all I have to clear this verse up (although a little off topic)
[85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
This is talking about one who believes in Islam and converts to another religion, NOT about the person who was a born Christian or Jew.
HOGCALLER said:The Truth,
You say: what if it turns out that Jesus wasn't sent for you or for anyone else except specific people (( according to the bible )) so what do you say?
will you reject somthing you don't like in the bible?
I say: Absolutely not! The reason I can be so adamant is that I know what the Bible does and does not say.
HOGCALLER said:The oldest prophecy that leads us to Jesus is Genesis 3:15. The next major change or progressive light that I will mention was the revelation that the seed was to come through the lineage of Abraham.
HOGCALLER said:However, at
HOGCALLER said:Genesis 22:18 note who was to benefit: And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice. God made good on that promise almost from the very start of the nation of Israel,
they should put thier nose because Christ "The Massiah" was sent to them ONLY.HOGCALLER said:Regardless of the fact that many of the Jews may have put their nose in the air, the fact is true religion and worship were always open to all and not just to a certain people.
can you tell me why the verse from 9:21 until 9:23 dosn't existed in the new international version?HOGCALLER said:Again there are very many revelations and prophecies that further clarify how God was working out and fulfilling Genesis 3:15. One outstanding prophecy is found at Daniel 9:24-27. Daniels prophecy sets the timetable for the appearance of the Messiah, the primary Seed, and for his death not to mention the end of the Mosaic arrangement and the cutting off of the nation of Israel including the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
HOGCALLER said:Note Luke 3:15-16, Now as the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: May he perhaps be the Christ? The reason why they all were in expectation and were reasoning in their hearts about John and the Christ was that it was time for him to appear and they understood that fact because they knew the Scriptures.
HOGCALLER said:Again, what that means is that Jesus was sent primarily, but not exclusively, and for a short time only to Israel so as to fulfill promises made to Abraham, Judah, David and others and so as to fulfill certain prophecies. He was not sent forever and totally exclusively to the Jews only.
That's why i want you to help me out to correct me if you don't mind.HOGCALLER said:Again we have come to see that your understanding of the Bible is VERY MUCH MISTAKEN.
HOGCALLER said:I say: I think we had a language or communication problem on that one. I am not at all sure what you mean. However, the point is that the Bible clearly states: death will be the fate of the sinner's soul. It does not say his fate will be everlasting torment in hellfire!.
HOGCALLER said:Maybe it is different in your part of the world my in my part of the world that would be called lying! .
HOGCALLER said:You ask: ya right so do you mean that DEATH is a punishment??
HOGCALLER said:I say: You seem very intelligent, you tell me.
Here is what Genesis 2:17 says according to various translations:
(DRB) But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.
(HNV) but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat of it you will surely die."
(LITV) but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.
(NAB) except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.
OK, you tell me, what did God say the penalty was for disobediently eating from the prohibited tree? DEATH, right? Or, are you going to claim that this is another occasion where it is OK for God to say one thing but mean something else?.
HOGCALLER said:Does God want worshippers that worship out of fear of punishment or does he want worshippers the worship him because they love him and they want to serve and please him? The latter, correct? So what use does God have for everlasting torment in hellfire? It makes no sense; it serves no useful purpose. It is a lie propagated by Satan.
in Islam the main part of our belief is to be in the middle between "fear" from punishment and "wish" to enter to heaven.HOGCALLER said:
i'm ready now.HOGCALLER said:The Truth,
I am happy to wait. Please just post a reply saying that you are ready. I will not reply until then.
Well first let's discuss something;The Truth said:Is this your personal understanding brother Ezzedean or you have a source to support your claim like a scholar or any tafseer?
I have doubt that you read everything in this thread.Ezzedean said:Well first let's discuss something;
[85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (3:85)
Does this verse not state that if you desire a religion other than Islam, you will in a certain way "pay" for this? If this is the case it contradicts with Sura 2, Verse 62.
Those who believe (in the Quran)
And those who follow the Jewish(scriptures),
And the Christians and the Sabians,
Any who believe in God
And the Last Day.
And work righteousness,
Shall have their reward
With their Lord: on them
Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
I know there is no contradiction in the Quran, and I'm pretty certain that in sura III.85, It's talking about the one who commits to Islam, and then converts to another religion.