Baptism as an Old Testament symbol

Strength & Honor · Apr 1, 2011

There have been several discussions about baptism here lately (which I love, BTW). As a way of building on that ongoing discussion, Id like to pose a question to you on the forums.

Do you believe that there is any value in looking for Old Testament symbols of baptism? Does it prove anything regarding a particular stance on baptism? Is it helpful to the discussion? What can we learn from them? What specific examples can you think of?

Here's mine, the classic: Peter, in his first epistle, relates baptism to the story of Noah.

1 Pet 3: 20-21: when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Thoughts?

esmith · Apr 1, 2011

From the Dead Sea Scrolls we learn about the communities the ritual bath twice daily before meals (4Q414) entitled Baptismal liturgy- deals definitely with such a bathing ritual but the text is so mutilated that no readable translation is possible. Flavius Josephus also mentions the ritual in War II, 129,132. However, in the Community Rules the wicked shall not enter the water for they shall not be cleansed unless they turn from the wickedness (1QS v, 13-14). Ture purification comes from the spirit of holiness and true cleansing from the humble submission of the soul to all God's precepts. Baptism, or ritual immersion played a key role in the Community Rules. All Jews practiced ritual immersion in antiquity for the removal of ritual impurity. However, rabbis call a tevul yom, one who has immersed in a mgqveh (ritual bath)during the daytime to remove his impurity, even though sunset is still some hours away. The Halakhic Letter argues that only at sundown is someone truly pure. The rabbis, as we know from Mishna , allowed such a person to be in a state between true purity and true impurity.

So, was baptism as Christians believe acceptable to ancient Judaism, the answer is no.

dan p · Apr 1, 2011

Strength & Honor said:
There have been several discussions about baptism here lately (which I love, BTW). As a way of building on that ongoing discussion, I’d like to pose a question to you on the forums.

Do you believe that there is any value in looking for Old Testament symbols of baptism? Does it prove anything regarding a particular stance on baptism? Is it helpful to the discussion? What can we learn from them? What specific examples can you think of?

Here's mine, the classic: Peter, in his first epistle, relates baptism to the story of Noah.

1 Pet 3: 20-21: “…when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”

Thoughts?

Hi , and baptism is a big subject , under the Law and under the Grace of God .

It means a different thing under the Jewish Law and means something entirely different application under Grace .

As you have pointed out , Noah was DRY in a ship and the One's who were water baptized , all WERE DROWNED and it is a picture of a cleansing , washing and a picture of permanecy .

By the way , what Peter wrote was to Jews and Paul wrote to Gentiles , as he was the Apostle to Gentiles .

Mine is in Eph 4:5 , one Baptism , so which one is that ? dan p

Katzpur · Apr 1, 2011

Strength & Honor said:
There have been several discussions about baptism here lately (which I love, BTW). As a way of building on that ongoing discussion, Id like to pose a question to you on the forums.

Do you believe that there is any value in looking for Old Testament symbols of baptism? Does it prove anything regarding a particular stance on baptism? Is it helpful to the discussion? What can we learn from them? What specific examples can you think of?

Here's mine, the classic: Peter, in his first epistle, relates baptism to the story of Noah.

1 Pet 3: 20-21: when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Thoughts?

Since I believe all of the ancient prophets had an understanding of this ordinance, it would make complete sense to me that we could learn from what they had to say about it.

Strength & Honor · Apr 1, 2011

dan p said:
Hi , and baptism is a big subject , under the Law and under the Grace of God .

It means a different thing under the Jewish Law and means something entirely different application under Grace .

I'm not talking about actual examples of baptism in the OT. What I'm really trying to get at is an event, or a story, or something that happens in the OT that reflects aspects of baptism found in the NT. For example, just like Noah was saved by the water, so are we through baptism.

Here's another one: Naaman, from 2 Kings 5:1-14. Naaman was a leper who sought out the prophet Elisha for a cure. Elisha sent a messenger to meet Naaman and told him to go dip in the Jordan River seven times. At first he resisted, expecting the man of God to just wave his arms around, call out God's name, and cure him. But his leprosy wasn't cured until he went and dipped in the Jordan seven times.

What can we learn from this story?

dan p said:
As you have pointed out , Noah was DRY in a ship and the One's who were water baptized , all WERE DROWNED and it is a picture of a cleansing , washing and a picture of permanecy .

You're right, technically speaking. But the point is this: God used water to save Noah and his family. Does this apply to you and me?

dan p said:
By the way , what Peter wrote was to Jews and Paul wrote to Gentiles , as he was the Apostle to Gentiles .

But they were all Christians.

Green Kepi · Apr 2, 2011

Strength & Honor said:
Here's another one: Naaman, from 2 Kings 5:1-14. Naaman was a leper who sought out the prophet Elisha for a cure. Elisha sent a messenger to meet Naaman and told him to go dip in the Jordan River seven times. At first he resisted, expecting the man of God to just wave his arms around, call out God's name, and cure him. But his leprosy wasn't cured until he went and dipped in the Jordan seven times.

Good one! In verse13...it states, "Wash and be cleansed". Just like Ephs 5:26 - "...cleansing her by the washing with water through the Word...". Meaning, baptism's a washing that cleanse us....

esmith · Apr 2, 2011

Those that think that a ritual bath as spoken about in the Old Testament is equivalent to the meaning of baptism in the New Testament are trying to equate or validate Christian ideas to the Old Testament. Please read my post #2 for a explanation of a "ritual bath". The object of the narrative of Naaman's sickness and restoration to health is, apparently, to form a link in the long series of miracles performed by Elisha.

Strength & Honor · Apr 2, 2011

esmith said:
Those that think that a ritual bath as spoken about in the Old Testament is equivalent to the meaning of baptism in the New Testament are trying to equate or validate Christian ideas to the Old Testament.

I am not, in any way, trying to do what you are describing. This is supposed to be a simple study in typology. Nothing more. I just think it's interesting to look in the OT for little, tiny, reflections of aspects of the NT. It can be done with just about about any NT subject, but I just wanted to make a thread about baptism. Simple as that.

esmith said:
Please read my post #2 for a explanation of a "ritual bath". The object of the narrative of Naaman's sickness and restoration to health is, apparently, to form a link in the long series of miracles performed by Elisha.

Yes, it is. But conveniently, it also reflects NT baptism in a rather interesting way.

Here's another one: The parting of the Red Sea. Once the Israelites passed through the water of the Red Sea, they were saved from the Egyptians. Just as we are saved from sin when we pass through the waters of baptism.

Any others out there? I've got a few more, but I want to see what others can come up with.

esmith · Apr 3, 2011

Strength & Honor said:
Yes, it is. But conveniently, it also reflects NT baptism in a rather interesting way.

Would you please explain how Naamans bathing in the river equates to how the NT explains the ritual of baptism

Strength & Honor said:
Here's another one: The parting of the Red Sea. Once the Israelites passed through the water of the Red Sea, they were saved from the Egyptians. Just as we are saved from sin when we pass through the waters of baptism.

First the passage should read the Sea of Reeds or Sea of Seaweed. Where the Egyptian chariots got stuck in the mud. Again I think you are attempting to validate your beliefs and are going a little "overboard" in your conjectures. You use the story of the Great Flood (Noah). This is a myth from the Gilgmesh Epic a Mesopotamia literary classic. If you don't agree with this, it is almost impossible to say that Noah was "immersed in water".

james2ko · Apr 3, 2011

Strength & Honor said:
Any others out there? I've got a few more, but I want to see what others can come up with.

Athough not popular in many Christian circles, how about the world-wide flood prior to Gen 1? It physically washed away satan and his demon's philosophy which corrupted the life forms on this earth prior to the creation of Adam.

Strength & Honor · Apr 3, 2011

esmith said:
Would you please explain how Naamans bathing in the river equates to how the NT explains the ritual of baptism

They don't equate. Again, that's not the point. The story of Naaman simply reflects aspects of NT baptism. It's simply interesting to note that Naaman was told to wash in a river to cleanse him of his leprosy, while in the NT we are told to be baptised in water to be cleansed from our sins. I am only attempting to point out similarities between the two.

esmith said:
I think you are attempting to validate your beliefs and are going a little "overboard" in your conjectures.

I am perfectly confident in my beliefs without having to "validate" them in this way. I have already explained what I'm trying to do with this thread. I think you are reading too deeply into my intent.

esmith said:
You use the story of the Great Flood (Noah). This is a myth from the Gilgmesh Epic a Mesopotamia literary classic. If you don't agree with this, it is almost impossible to say that Noah was "immersed in water".

I never said Noah was immersed in water during the flood. Infact, I think it's safe to say that he wasn't immersed. I simply thought it interesting that Peter would make a comparison between the flood and baptism (1 Pet. 3:20-21). So, I asked what other such comparisons (if any) exist.

Strength & Honor · Apr 3, 2011

james2ko said:
Athough not popular in many Christian circles, how about the world-wide flood prior to Gen 1? It physically washed away satan and his demon's philosophy which corrupted the life forms on this earth prior to the creation of Adam.

And, by the same token, it saved Noah and his family. I love this one! Especially since it is a comparison that comes straight from scripture (1 Pet. 3:20-21) as I noted in the OP. What else have you thought of?

Here's another one: The Israelites' conquest of Jericho. Before they were allowed to enter into the Promised Land, they had to cross the Jordan River. How does this compare to NT baptism? Before we can enter the "promised land" (heaven), we must pass through the waters of baptism! A stretch perhaps, but it's an interesting parallel, I think.

esmith · Apr 3, 2011

Strength & Honor said:
They don't equate. Again, that's not the point. The story of Naaman simply reflects aspects of NT baptism. It's simply interesting to note that Naaman was told to wash in a river to cleanse him of his leprosy, while in the NT we are told to be baptised in water to be cleansed from our sins. I am only attempting to point out similarities between the two.

So, anytime water and humans are mentioned you say that it similar to baptism. Do you really believe this?

Strength & Honor said:
I am perfectly confident in my beliefs without having to "validate" them in this way. I have already explained what I'm trying to do with this thread. I think you are reading too deeply into my intent.

If you are not trying to justify your beliefs in the NT why then do you have to use the Old Testament to show that the writers in the NT want to relate their beliefs to what is written in the Old Testament?

Strength & Honor said:
I never said Noah was immersed in water during the flood. Infact, I think it's safe to say that he wasn't immersed. I simply thought it interesting that Peter would make a comparison between the flood and baptism (1 Pet. 3:20-21). So, I asked what other such comparisons (if any) exist.

Yes, I have read the references you mention in 1Pet. and again it appears that the writer is attempting to validate their beliefs with, in the case, a Babylonian legend. Who is this writer writing to? It would have to be those of the Jewish faith since gentiles would not be concerned with the Jewish, in this case, Torah. Also these writings were supposed to be written by the apostle Peter, a illiterate fisherman. The idiomatic Greek used was far beyond his compression. Aramaic was the common spoken language with Greek being used by business and government. The writings of Peter are considered by most scholars to be a forgery.

james2ko · Apr 3, 2011

Strength & Honor said:
And, by the same token, it saved Noah and his family. I love this one! Especially since it is a comparison that comes straight from scripture (1 Pet. 3:20-21) as I noted in the OP. What else have you thought of?

Not Noah's flood. I'm referring to a world-wide deluge which occurred prior to the creation of Adam when Lucifer and his angels ruled the earth and its life forms.

Strength & Honor said:
Here's another one: The Israelites' conquest of Jericho. Before they were allowed to enter into the Promised Land, they had to cross the Jordan River. How does this compare to NT baptism? Before we can enter the "promised land" (heaven), we must pass through the waters of baptism! A stretch perhaps, but it's an interesting parallel, I think.

I believe you are right on with those parallels. Our God has a wonderful sense of irony.

Strength & Honor · Apr 3, 2011

james2ko said:
Not Noah's flood. I'm referring to a world-wide deluge which occurred prior to the creation of Adam when Lucifer and his angels ruled the earth and its life forms.

Interesting. Where is this mentioned in the OT? Do you have a passage for it?

Strength & Honor · Apr 3, 2011

esmith said:
So, anytime water and humans are mentioned you say that it similar to baptism. Do you really believe this?

Perhaps not every time, but I do believe there is often a connection. This is an exercise in typology (specifically as it relates to baptism). You can do it with many biblical subjects (Christ, is the most obvious and common example), but I just wanted to have a deiscussion about baptism.

esmith · Apr 3, 2011

Two questions.
1. What does the ritual of baptism represent in the Christian faith?
2. What does the purification by bathing represent in the Jewish faith?

james2ko · Apr 3, 2011

Strength & Honor said:
Interesting. Where is this mentioned in the OT? Do you have a passage for it?

"The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." Gen 1:2

Katzpur · Apr 3, 2011

esmith said:
Two questions.
1. What does the ritual of baptism represent in the Christian faith?
2. What does the purification by bathing represent in the Jewish faith?

I'm only going to answer the first question since I try to avoid explaining other people's beliefs for them. (It's so easy to get it wrong.)

To me, as a Christian, the ritual of baptism represents a couple of things. First, since it is the way we are symbolically cleansed of past sins, it is fruitless unless preceded by faith in Jesus Christ and repentence for one's sins. Second, and to me even more important, it is the way by which we enter into what we LDS would refer to as a "covenant relationship" with Jesus Christ. If that phrase isn't altogether clear, it might make more sense to say that it is the way a person commits to Jesus Christ that he is willing to take upon himself His Savior's name. It's making a promise to continue to live in accordance with the way Jesus Christ told us to live, and to do so throughout one's life, repenting again as necessary when we fall short. It's also receiving from Him, the promise of forgiveness and reconciliation with God as a result.

esmith · Apr 3, 2011

james2ko said:
"The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." Gen 1:2

You are really stretching my belief that you are serious. Do you really believe that this has any remote possibility of a reference to baptism? Also the creation stories are a modification of a Babylonian creation myth "The Enuma Elish".

Baptism as an Old Testament symbol

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