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INDEPENDENT or DEPENDENT

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend skwim,

Not to cast any stones here or be unkind, and maybe it's because I was raised in a western culture, but from reading some of the comments in this thread Zen inscrutability appears to be a self-reinforcing end unto itself.
Yes the first part is well understood that we are all here to clear any delusions that our minds carry.
Rgds the last part is pointing towards a way; a way where the remnants /traces of the *self* is annihilated/ lifted to reveal that what IS! and THAT is what all paths/ways leads one to, that which this forum is all about, that which everyone here is trying to discuss, that which most here is trying to understand, etc. etc.

Love & rgds

n.b. all search/enquiry led to the state of no-mind/no-self. Yes it is also understood that mind/self exists but only to understand/realize and be part of that eternal evolution.....
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend dopp,

When it becomes 'an act' has it been removed from its dependent context already?
You need to unravel your own thoughts/understanding/experiences for the understanding of others and only through sharing is what sangham saranam gacchami is all about.

Love & rgds
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
doppelgänger;2399894 said:
Nietzsche made an interesting point about this in Beyond Good & Evil:

Thank you doppelgänger for the citation. It is extremely valuable and complements the Brihadaranyaka verse that i posted. It is extrememly valuable, since here we have a hard core intellectual thinker reflecting the same message.

Thanks again.
 

smokeybear

Member


Acts are dependent.


Action is independent.

Thinking about action breaks constant movement into acts-in-time prompting the brain to look for bottom-up, past>present>future causation. This gives the illusion of acts which are dependent on other acts.

However, action, either without, or in harmony with thought, is holistic -- in constant, seamless movement even at rest. Uncorrupted action is now-in-motion watching time approach and acting accordingly.

Materialism, through thought, attempts to break energy up into solid particles for manipulation. This requires the search for cause-and-effect dependence. Modern man tries to control natural forces.

Practical spirituality, through intuition, integrates with energy and moves with broader intent. This requires surrendering limited will to a higher will which is independent and unlimited.


baldeagle.jpg


Wild animals, through instinct, surrender to natural forces.


This is how materialistic mind struggles between acts and action.

[youtube]ck6vqsOt-Pc[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck6vqsOt-Pc


These fellows broke action to talk (think) about possibilities instead of doing what intuition told them to do in the first place.

JUMP!!!!

"I can't swim," is a reflection of past experience.

It has nothing to do with now-in-motion.


Materialism has created idiots of us all.

mastertard.gif


.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend smokeybear,
However, action, either without, or in harmony with thought, is holistic -- in constant, seamless movement even at rest. Uncorrupted action is now-in-motion watching time approach and acting accordingly.
Thank you for that clarity in response.

Practical spirituality, through intuition, integrates with energy and moves with broader intent. This requires surrendering limited will to a higher will which is independent and unlimited.
Deeper understanding is required to understand the root of intuition, energy and that of action etc. We shall do so as we go by.
Love & rgds
 

dolly

Member
Everything is dependent on something. Sometimes in a roundabout, distant way - but it is nevertheless dependent.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Friends,

A question that would like to place before everyone and may be viewed from any angle/point be it scientific or religious and that is:

is an act INDEPENDENT or DEPENDENT on any thing else & why?

The responses may help us unraveling the mysteries of life!

Love & rgds

A Mother takes her Son Johnny to the road,"Johnny,before you cross the road you must look left right and listen to make sure its clear of traffic",Johnny says "ok Mum" so they go throught the routine and cross the road with no problems.

On the return journey Mum says "ok Johnny lets see if you can cross the road on your own" Johnny walks across the road and gets run over,his decision to cross without going through the safe crossing routine was independent of his Mums advice and his safety was dependant of listening to his Mum.:D
 

dolly

Member
Or it was dependent on him thinking that his mom was overreacting and that nothing bad would happen. Maybe it was from the feeling of invincibility that kids have. There is always a reason behind every action whether conscious or unconscious.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friends,
There is a part in the kid which in the act becomes independent of any past learning/experiences and is strictly at his own risk and the risk too is again at a point independent while facing any.
Certain times we reach a point of extremes and then if something happens we simply take that jump/leap of faith and then later realise what we did at that point when the act happens, it is independent of all past and future of all its attachments.

Love & rgds
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
A Mother takes her Son Johnny to the road,"Johnny,before you cross the road you must look left right and listen to make sure its clear of traffic",Johnny says "ok Mum" so they go throught the routine and cross the road with no problems.

On the return journey Mum says "ok Johnny lets see if you can cross the road on your own" Johnny walks across the road and gets run over,his decision to cross without going through the safe crossing routine was independent of his Mums advice and his safety was dependant of listening to his Mum.:D
:facepalm: It's a mistake to think that just because an act isn't dependent on X that it isn't possible to be dependent on Y or Z.
 
Every incident is dependent on one sign of independent spirit that spirit is GOD He allow every thing of this universe to act or perform certain things. other wise a single petal can be fallen with out his permission.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Manahel Fatima,

Kindly observe that we are consciously discussing the OP without the use of the label *GOD*.

Love & rgds
 

Gloone

Well-Known Member
Friends,

A question that would like to place before everyone and may be viewed from any angle/point be it scientific or religious and that is:

is an act INDEPENDENT or DEPENDENT on any thing else & why?

The responses may help us unraveling the mysteries of life!

Love & rgds
I think it can be either or really. If an act is dependent on something else then it is relying on that something for support. If it is independent then it has no support mechanisms and can essentially stand on its own, not being dependent on anything. I think it is all part of the descion making process. :D
 

Gloone

Well-Known Member
I can only think of one example right now, I'm sure there are others of independent acts.

Like a kid learning how to walk. It basically has no dependencies and will eventually learn how to walk on its own independently, without any help, guidance or assistance. You can’t walk for a kid, it is something the kid will eventually have to learn on its own.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Gloone,
The observation is correct and the same stands for every other acts.
If am influenced to act as a human bomb appears to be dependent act but finally at the moment of the act, it becomes independent a choice made by the individual independently unless the individual has no sense of understanding independently what dependent or independent means.
Love & rgds
 

Gloone

Well-Known Member
Friend Gloone,
The observation is correct and the same stands for every other acts.
If am influenced to act as a human bomb appears to be dependent act but finally at the moment of the act, it becomes independent a choice made by the individual independently unless the individual has no sense of understanding independently what dependent or independent means.
Love & rgds
I would say you are probably correct with the later. A Human bomb doesn’t have the capabilities of thinking independently and is probably easily influenced by something else mudding the waters of any independent thought. A bomb doesn’t think. Why would a human bomb be any different?

Independent involves not relying on any outside influences.

A star falling to earth isn’t independent because it has entered the earth’s atmosphere and is being influenced by gravity.

A star traveling through space isn’t dependent on anything because it is freely flowing in a wasteland filled with emptiness, space. It was set in motion, but isn’t dependent on what set it in motion.

What goes up must come down! Kind of like throwing a ball into the sky, there is a point it eventually reaches before it begins it’s decent. That point is the height of its travel where it isn’t being influenced by anything. I think it is called inertia.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I think the posts are still stuck in the realm of attributing cause-effect to the thread itself -- sort of.

It is very difficult to mentally capture the reality that at the instant of any happening the happening is an independent happening. After a few seconds or after a minute or after days, it is our thinking process that will associate meanings and link things.
 

horizon_mj1

Well-Known Member
Friends,

A question that would like to place before everyone and may be viewed from any angle/point be it scientific or religious and that is:

is an act INDEPENDENT or DEPENDENT on any thing else & why?

The responses may help us unraveling the mysteries of life!

Love & rgds
Both. The independence of the action is based on the person's decision (I am assuming you are asking in this text) and the dependency is based on said decision. Example: A knife is sitting on the edge of a counter ledge about to fall (dependency of action taken). It is your choice to either let it fall or move it somewhere more stable (independence of choice). Quick reactions I believe are dependent in that it depends on the "type" of person you are to react in any given situation. A reaction that you have more time to consider is more independent due to having more time to view all possible outcomes.

Really though when you look at the base facts. all actions are dependent on an energy force. Without said energy to create an action, it is an impossibility to accomplish the task.:yes:
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Atanu,

It is very difficult to mentally capture the reality that at the instant of any happening the happening is an independent happening. After a few seconds or after a minute or after days, it is our thinking process that will associate meanings and link things.

Agreed and not denied; however even if the mind is considered is the act independent?? is the question.
As we are in any act, we are dependent of outside influences but in the act itself a point of independence comes when the individual himself acts out of choice, provided again must add that the individual is capable of choosing; or else it is just a mechanical act dependent of the energy provided from outside.

Your views!
Love & rgds
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend horizon,

Really though when you look at the base facts. all actions are dependent on an energy force. Without said energy to create an action, it is an impossibility to accomplish the task.
True but would you agree that when that energy used is the individual's own then surely it is his own choice and independent for that moment.

Your opinion?
Love & rgds
 
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