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Not with reference to any Biblical text, I personally believe that Jesus Christ is 'co-equal' to his Father.Katzpur said:Is it possible for Jesus Christ to be fully divine and at the same time be in any way subordinate to His Father? Or does His being divine mean that He has to be co-equal to His Father?
Hi, Michel.michel said:Not with reference to any Biblical text, I personally believe that Jesus Christ is 'co-equal' to his Father.
Katzpur said:As to references from the Bible, we could start by quoting Jesus Christ himself:
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
For now, since I hate having to respond to enormously long posts myself, Ill just mention three other verses which appear to support my belief that the Son is subordinate to the Father but still absolutely divine:
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Question: Why do we always see the Father as the teacher and the Son as the student? Where is a scripture that shows a reversal of roles?
Katzpur said:John 17:4
Katzpur said:I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Katzpur said:Question: Who gave whom the work? Did the Son ever, that you know of, give the Father instructions as to what He wanted done?
Katzpur said:Mark 13:32
Katzpur said:But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Firstly, I think this so important verse that show Jesus in less degree than God because Jesus himself dosn't know that day.Katzpur said:Question: There is obviously at least one thing the Son does not know but which the Father does know. Is there anything that the Son knows that the Father does not also know?
I hope that you can help me with bringing any verse in the bible that confirm your claim so once we say anything we make sure it dosn't based in personal understanding only but understanding based on sources from the bible itself.facetiousme said:He was both: equal AND a servant
Katzpur said:Hi, Michel.
Im glad to hear from somebody. I had told Scott, in another thread, that I was going to start a new thread on this subject. Hopefully, he will have something to contribute, too.
As to references from the Bible, we could start by quoting Jesus Christ himself:
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
For now, since I hate having to respond to enormously long posts myself, Ill just mention three other verses which appear to support my belief that the Son is subordinate to the Father but still absolutely divine:
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Question: Why do we always see the Father as the teacher and the Son as the student? Where is a scripture that shows a reversal of roles?
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Question: Who gave whom the work? Did the Son ever, that you know of, give the Father instructions as to what He wanted done?
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Question: There is obviously at least one thing the Son does not know but which the Father does know. Is there anything that the Son knows that the Father does not also know?
If you believe that this difference in status existed only when Christ was here on earth and did not exist prior to His incarnation (as I suspect is the case), I would be interested in Biblical support for your belief, as well.
Kathryn
Do you think God may lose his power even thought he is in human form as you claim? do you really know what is the meaning of being GOD .. G - O - D ?blueman said:Jesus, the Son is on equal par with His Father and The Holy Spirit, wITH each sharing the same attributes (omnisicience,omnipresence,omnipotence,eternality and immutability). Now, as part of God's purpose of redeeming mankind, Jesus, as part of His incarnation, did empty himself of some of the attributes applicable to His deity when he was made flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1-3). Paul speaks to this emptying of Himself in Phillipians 2. Jesus, as part of His incarnation, was more dependent on the Father as a result of being in His fleshly state. When He resurrected, He had all power in His hand and all of His attributes fully restored leading up to His ascension into heaven.
"God gives us free will and we all have a choice".
WWW.LIFE-CHOICE.NET
CertainlyThe Truth said:I hope that you can help me with bringing any verse in the bible that confirm your claim so once we say anything we make sure it dosn't based in personal understanding only but understanding based on sources from the bible itself.
Well said! :162:glasgowchick said:Only in His Human nature did Jesus say these things...Remember Jesus emptied Himself and took on the form of a bond slave...
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:facetiousme said:Certainly
Philippians 2:5-8
5 ° Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
So, are you saying that Jesus is equal to God but he is not a god.nutshell said:There is only one God and that is God the Father. It is He who we worship. Jesus Christ is our savior, to whom we are eternally indebted to.
Christ is equal to the father in that he is an heir to all his father has. In this way, we too can be joint heirs with Christ (see Romans 8:16-18). Does this make us equal? Absolutely not. We must always worship the Father.
Thanks .. :bouncenutshell said:And by the way...I like seeing The Truth's input. It's sometimes good to get an outside perspective on things.
Hi, Truth.The Truth said:Therefore, personally i believe that in this verse Jesus showed us clearly that he is not equal with God in term of knowledge but just like us.
Actually, subordinationism (i.e. the beliefs that the Son and the Holy Ghost) are both subordinate to the Father) was taught throughout the Apostolic era and for some some thereafter. A number of the early Church Fathers commented on Christ's position within the Godhead relative to His Father. For instance:glasgowchick said:Only in His Human nature did Jesus say these things...Remember Jesus emptied Himself and took on the form of a bond slave...
ops :bonk:Katzpur said:Hi, Truth.
That's quite a leap, don't you think? It's one thing to say that Jesus Christ occupies a position subordinate to His Father, but quite another to say that, in terms of His knowledge, He is "just like us." I realize that you are a Muslim and therefore view Jesus in an entirely different light than do Christians, but you'd have a really hard time convincing any Christian (even a heretic like me ) that Jesus has no greater knowledge than you or I.
Kathryn
Hi Katz,Katzpur said:Is it possible for Jesus Christ to be fully divine and at the same time be in any way subordinate to His Father? Or does His being divine mean that He has to be co-equal to His Father?