-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Divinity and Sonship
- Thread starter Katzpur
- Start date
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Hi, Michel.michel said:
Im glad to hear from somebody. I had told Scott, in another thread, that I was going to start a new thread on this subject. Hopefully, he will have something to contribute, too.
As to references from the Bible, we could start by quoting Jesus Christ himself:
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
For now, since I hate having to respond to enormously long posts myself, Ill just mention three other verses which appear to support my belief that the Son is subordinate to the Father but still absolutely divine:
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Question: Why do we always see the Father as the teacher and the Son as the student? Where is a scripture that shows a reversal of roles?
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Question: Who gave whom the work? Did the Son ever, that you know of, give the Father instructions as to what He wanted done?
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Question: There is obviously at least one thing the Son does not know but which the Father does know. Is there anything that the Son knows that the Father does not also know?
If you believe that this difference in status existed only when Christ was here on earth and did not exist prior to His incarnation (as I suspect is the case), I would be interested in Biblical support for your belief, as well.
Kathryn
facetiousme
Member
He was both: equal AND a servant
hi katzpur,
First of all once i saw your thread i was interested to discuss about it because i know some information about it and i wanted to expand my knowledge but i just left the thread after finishing reading your post then i came back saying maybe i have chance to discuss it because as you know once i appear in any thread "some" members will try to defend anything i say whatever it's because i'm a muslim and they should "WIN" the "so called" battle against me or they will try to attach some verses from Quran which have nothing to do with the biblical topic.
So, i just want to say i'll just post some comments about your post and if i'm not welcome in this biblical thread in here by any christian so please just tell me that from the begining directly and i'll aperciate that and i'll leave the thread to others.
As you can see in the bible always Jesus Christ was calling God "the father" and he was referring any power he has to him and that God "the father" is greater than Jesus Christ.
I personally didn't see any signle verse where Jesus gave any work for God"the father".
Secondly, Jesus made himself equal with us but not with God and even with angels"which are in heaven" in terms of knowledge when he said:
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Therefore, personally i believe that in this verse Jesus showed us clearly that he is not equal with God in term of knowledge but just like us.
First of all once i saw your thread i was interested to discuss about it because i know some information about it and i wanted to expand my knowledge but i just left the thread after finishing reading your post then i came back saying maybe i have chance to discuss it because as you know once i appear in any thread "some" members will try to defend anything i say whatever it's because i'm a muslim and they should "WIN" the "so called" battle against me or they will try to attach some verses from Quran which have nothing to do with the biblical topic.
So, i just want to say i'll just post some comments about your post and if i'm not welcome in this biblical thread in here by any christian so please just tell me that from the begining directly and i'll aperciate that and i'll leave the thread to others.
Katzpur said:
As you can see in the bible always Jesus Christ was calling God "the father" and he was referring any power he has to him and that God "the father" is greater than Jesus Christ.
Katzpur said:
Katzpur said:
Katzpur said:
I personally didn't see any signle verse where Jesus gave any work for God"the father".
Katzpur said:
Katzpur said:
Firstly, I think this so important verse that show Jesus in less degree than God because Jesus himself dosn't know that day.Katzpur said:
Secondly, Jesus made himself equal with us but not with God and even with angels"which are in heaven" in terms of knowledge when he said:
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Therefore, personally i believe that in this verse Jesus showed us clearly that he is not equal with God in term of knowledge but just like us.
glasgowchick
Gives Glory to God !!!
Katzpur said:
Only in His Human nature did Jesus say these things...Remember Jesus emptied Himself and took on the form of a bond slave...
blueman
God's Warrior
Jesus, the Son is on equal par with His Father and The Holy Spirit, wITH each sharing the same attributes (omnisicience,omnipresence,omnipotence,eternality and immutability). Now, as part of God's purpose of redeeming mankind, Jesus, as part of His incarnation, did empty himself of some of the attributes applicable to His deity when he was made flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1-3). Paul speaks to this emptying of Himself in Phillipians 2. Jesus, as part of His incarnation, was more dependent on the Father as a result of being in His fleshly state. When He resurrected, He had all power in His hand and all of His attributes fully restored leading up to His ascension into heaven.
"God gives us free will and we all have a choice".
WWW.LIFE-CHOICE.NET
"God gives us free will and we all have a choice".
WWW.LIFE-CHOICE.NET
Do you think God may lose his power even thought he is in human form as you claim? do you really know what is the meaning of being GOD .. G - O - D ?blueman said:Jesus, the Son is on equal par with His Father and The Holy Spirit, wITH each sharing the same attributes (omnisicience,omnipresence,omnipotence,eternality and immutability). Now, as part of God's purpose of redeeming mankind, Jesus, as part of His incarnation, did empty himself of some of the attributes applicable to His deity when he was made flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1-3). Paul speaks to this emptying of Himself in Phillipians 2. Jesus, as part of His incarnation, was more dependent on the Father as a result of being in His fleshly state. When He resurrected, He had all power in His hand and all of His attributes fully restored leading up to His ascension into heaven.
"God gives us free will and we all have a choice".
WWW.LIFE-CHOICE.NET
facetiousme
Member
CertainlyThe Truth said:
Philippians 2:5-8
http://www.religiousforums.com/bible/index.php?keyword=5 ° Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
http://www.religiousforums.com/bible/index.php?keyword=6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
http://www.religiousforums.com/bible/index.php?keyword=7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
http://www.religiousforums.com/bible/index.php?keyword=8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
nutshell
Well-Known Member
There is only one God and that is God the Father. It is He who we worship. Jesus Christ is our savior, to whom we are eternally indebted to.
Christ is equal to the father in that he is an heir to all his father has. In this way, we too can be joint heirs with Christ (see Romans 8:16-18). Does this make us equal? Absolutely not. We must always worship the Father.
Christ is equal to the father in that he is an heir to all his father has. In this way, we too can be joint heirs with Christ (see Romans 8:16-18). Does this make us equal? Absolutely not. We must always worship the Father.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Hi, Truth.The Truth said:
That's quite a leap, don't you think? It's one thing to say that Jesus Christ occupies a position subordinate to His Father, but quite another to say that, in terms of His knowledge, He is "just like us." I realize that you are a Muslim and therefore view Jesus in an entirely different light than do Christians, but you'd have a really hard time convincing any Christian (even a heretic like me
) that Jesus has no greater knowledge than you or I.Kathryn
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Actually, subordinationism (i.e. the beliefs that the Son and the Holy Ghost) are both subordinate to the Father) was taught throughout the Apostolic era and for some some thereafter. A number of the early Church Fathers commented on Christ's position within the Godhead relative to His Father. For instance:glasgowchick said:
Hippolytus wrote (in his Scholia on Daniel 7) that the Father is "the Lord and God and Ruler of all, and even of Christ Himself..."
Irenaeus (in Against Heresies) noted that "For if anyone should inquire the reason why the Father, who has fellowship with the Son in all things, has been declared by the Lord alone to know the hour and the day [of judgment], he will find at present no more suitable, or becoming, or safe reason that this... that we may learn through Him that the Father is above all things. For 'the father,' says He, 'is greater than I.'
Obviously, then, Christ's statement concerning His Father's superiority was not meant to be understood as being true only up until His ascension into Heaven.
Irenaeus further explained, "The, therefore, having been clearly demonstrated here... that neither the prophets, nor the Apostles, nor the Lord Christ in His own person, did acknowledge any other Lord or God, but the God and Lord supreme."
To insist that the Son's subordination to His Father was only for the duration of His mortal life is to ignore the fact that it was God the Father who (according to Ephesians 3:9) "created all things by Jesus Christ." Christ, then, was the creator, but acted under His Father's counsel and direction. So, even in His premortal state, Christ acknowledged His Father as surpreme.
ops :bonk:Katzpur said:Hi, Truth.
That's quite a leap, don't you think? It's one thing to say that Jesus Christ occupies a position subordinate to His Father, but quite another to say that, in terms of His knowledge, He is "just like us." I realize that you are a Muslim and therefore view Jesus in an entirely different light than do Christians, but you'd have a really hard time convincing any Christian (even a heretic like me
Kathryn
I guess i didn't express well what i'm trying to say.
what i meant is not the life's and religion's knowledge because he may surpase at his time all living human beings but what i mean is knowledge that concern with the hereafter and sorry if i didn't mention that earliar because i was typing with one closed-eye "sleepy" and all of you guys again what i say here is my personal beliefs and i don't represent my religion because i'm not aware of it 100% and i'm still learning.
Bennettresearch
Politically Incorrect
Hi Katz,Katzpur said:
I think that it is clear in the Gospels that Jesus was representing a hierarchical order. The rush to make Him divine created an over-reaching of sorts. The concept of melding God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit into one being cancels out the importance of each of these. I just popped in here so I don't have time to quote anything, but I think it is actually pretty clear that Jesus speaks of these things as being separate. There is God, there is the Holy Spirit, and there is Jesus. Jesus was humble in the presence of God and the Holy Spirit. And so, Jesus represents Himself as having the word of God within Him, not being God.