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God's Curse in Genesis

Pah

Uber all member
From Genesis 3:14-19, NIV
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,

"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [1] and hers;
he will crush [2] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."


There has been some discussion in another thread that death came to humakind through the curse God gave Adam for eating of the fruiut of the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. It has been alledged that the "cursing of the ground" is the venue.

The context of the phrase "Cursed is the ground because of you" does not show that. Instead, it shows that weeds would make humankind's labors more difficult.

I can see nowhere else where death is part of the curse. Indeed, the span of humankind's life is mentioned. It not that comparable and equivalent to the the rest of living animals and plants. They, except for the serpent, are not cursed and we know that that have live terminated by death. Plants and animals die within a live span according to kind.

Death was not part of the curse.

-pah-
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
since this is your thread, i would like ask if you're going to exclude other parts of the 'bible'?i know you'd like nothing other than to turn believers away from their faith, and limiting the word which it is based on to 1/66 of it's actual contents would do nothing but help your cause.

Death was not part of the curse.
not?

"..for dust you are
and to dust you will return.""

Ignorance is bliss


--S
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
Pah,
You are right, death is not a part of the curse. "On the day you eat of it you shall die".
Already a promise.
Cursed the ground/adamah, Adam is from the adamah/ground.
Adam was like God, he was immortal, had he been obedient, he would be alive today.
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
HelpMe said:
since this is your thread, i would like ask if you're going to exclude other parts of the 'bible'?i know you'd like nothing other than to turn believers away from their faith, and limiting the word which it is based on to 1/66 of it's actual contents would do nothing but help your cause.


not?

"..for dust you are
and to dust you will return.""

Ignorance is bliss


--S
How do you know, Pah, would like nothing better than to turn believers away from their faith?
I think you need to read again his posts.
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
Ronald said:
How do you know, Pah, would like nothing better than to turn believers away from their faith?
I think you need to read again his posts.
1-i answer question scripturally(romans)
2-he takes a cheap(hollow) shot at romans validity
3-he lends no credability to the 'bible' what so ever.he makes points i'm very sure he already knows the answer to, just to see if it will be given, but perhaps i'm giving him too much credit.how do you think things would be if we lent that much credability to his god a.k.a. science?

more?


--S
 

Pah

Uber all member
HelpMe said:
since this is your thread, i would like ask if you're going to exclude other parts of the 'bible'?i know you'd like nothing other than to turn believers away from their faith, and limiting the word which it is based on to 1/66 of it's actual contents would do nothing but help your cause.

Of course not, bring any contradicting biblical verse to the debate.

But one thing I will not tolerate as a member of ReligiousForums is the disrespetctful innuendo and, as a moderator, will enforce the rule that covers it. You know nothing of my mind and my likes and my purpose. Keep your comments of that nature to yourself.



not?

"..for dust you are
and to dust you will return.""

Please be more specific

Ignorance is bliss

Since ignorance is only the state of not knowing and not indictative of capability, I do not take this personally. But even so, I don't agree with you completely about it being bliss.

-pah-
 

Pah

Uber all member
Ronald said:
Pah,
You are right, death is not a part of the curse. "On the day you eat of it you shall die".
Already a promise.
Cursed the ground/adamah, Adam is from the adamah/ground.
Adam was like God, he was immortal, had he been obedient, he would be alive today.

Good to have you join us, Ronald.

Your opinion makes three. But I think that death is implicit in creating life. Neither the curse nor that promise is given to other living things. Death of plants and animals must, in my mind, have been introduced previous to both. Why would it not have been so for humankind?

At least we agree that it is not present in the curse.

-pah-
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
Helpme,
You are flying off the handle, when you are full of poop!
Only his religion and the signature, are you reacting to. Pardon my english, but you sound just like a Christian! Judgemental!
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
Ro6:23
...For the wages of sin is death...

Ro5:12
...It was through one man [Adam] that sin entered the world, and through sin death...

I think, since the first arguement was so poor...
i believe you would guess that may be percieved as offensive as my assumption of your purpose?

So you think death was part of the curse for Adam's disobeying God? Nowhere in Genesis 3:14-19 is mention made of death.
v19—...for dust you are
and to dust you will return...

this is a simple reference to death, there are other times in the bible where returning to dust is likened to death(ecc12:7?).

The span of life was a characteristic of the creation for we know that animals and plants die and they were not cursed.
this is an assumption, you could just as well believe they were immortal before the ground of which they live on was cursed.
pah said:
...must, in my mind...

there inlay the problem?since scripture does not state one or the other way, it is best, for a believer, do have a mind open to the possibilty of either.this fact also really nullyfies it's being or becoming a serious issue(besides the other, which is that...how central to any doctorine or practice is this particular subject?).given this, it is really trivial.

Ronald said:
but you sound just like a Christian! Judgemental
was i in need of your judgement?can you spot the irony in these 8 words?

when you are full of poop!
well it's been a while so, but anyway...elaborate/clarify?

--S
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
pah said:
Good to have you join us, Ronald.

Your opinion makes three. But I think that death is implicit in creating life. Neither the curse nor that promise is given to other living things. Death of plants and animals must, in my mind, have been introduced previous to both. Why would it not have been so for humankind?

At least we agree that it is not present in the curse.

-pah-

Because Adam was created in the image of God. In my mind nothing died before man disobeyed, then the promise of death was put in place by man.
Then Elohim had to recreate perfect man again in the form of Yeshua to redeem mankind from sin, at the end of this age we find death and the tempter thrown into the lake of fire, then mankind will once again be like him. Immortal/Perfect in His Image.
Nothing died in the Garden, upon restoration it will be the same.
Shalom Chaver
 

Pah

Uber all member
HelpMe said:
Ro6:23
...For the wages of sin is death...

Ro5:12
...It was through one man [Adam] that sin entered the world, and through sin death...

Paul makes it abundantly clear in Romans 6: 1-6 that the death he speaks of is the death to sin and again in Romans 6 11. Paul speaks of Christ's death as the absolution of sin and thus the abolishment of spiritual death. I don't see in your quotes out of context that death of the body is being addressed in Romans.


/cut/
v19—...for dust you are
and to dust you will return...

this is a simple reference to death, there are other times in the bible where returning to dust is likened to death(ecc12:7?).

  • Genesis 13:16 and 28:14, Numbers 23:10, 2 Chronicles1:9 where number of dust is the symbol for a multitude
  • Genesis 18:27 where the living Abraham speaks of himself as dust
  • Exodus 8:16 and 9:9 where dust is the imputus of Eygpt's plagues
  • Numbers 5:17 where dust is the bitter agent in a test for an unfaithful wife
  • Joshua 7:6 where dust is the symbol for shame
  • et cetera, et cetera
Yeah, dust has many symbolic meanings. But what you have not done is shown that the symbol of death is an element of the curse. The cursed ground is the cause for Adam's hard labor and source of food and does not add to your agruement. Your point is shown to be extraneous to the debate by the first part of verse 19 "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground," You, Adam, will labor hard and eat from the fruit of your labor till the end of your life span. Where is the curse of physical death?

-pah-
 

Pah

Uber all member
Ronald said:
Because Adam was created in the image of God. In my mind nothing died before man disobeyed, then the promise of death was put in place by man.
Then Elohim had to recreate perfect man again in the form of Yeshua to redeem mankind from sin, at the end of this age we find death and the tempter thrown into the lake of fire, then mankind will once again be like him. Immortal/Perfect in His Image.
Nothing died in the Garden, upon restoration it will be the same.
Shalom Chaver

Well, that point is worthy of consideration. The only thing that sticks in my craw is that animals (except for the serpent) were not included in the curse nor the plants, for that matter. But I'll not push that - especially from a personal perspective.

Perhaps nothing died in the garden because they seem to have been there for a short period of time. Then, again, the creation story seems to be disconnected from our concept of time.

-pah-
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
until you return to the ground," You, Adam, will labor hard and eat from the fruit of your labor till the end of your life span. Where is the curse of physical death?
..until you return to the ground..

unless you think it means he was flying or something?


--S
 

Pah

Uber all member
HelpMe said:
..until you return to the ground..

unless you think it means he was flying or something?


--S

Please, as requested, show that this is an element of the curse.

-pah-
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
pah said:
Please, as requested, show that this is an element of the curse.

-pah-
To adam it was said: Cursed is the ground because of you;through painful toil you will eat of it...until you return to the ground,since from it you were taken;for dust you are and to dust you will return."

??


--S
 

true blood

Active Member
Matthew 7:3: And why beholdest thou the mote[small fault] that is in thy brother's eye[spiritual understanding] but considerest not the beam[total tripout] that is in thine own eye[spiritual understanding] or how wilt though say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote[small fault] out of thine eye[spiritual understanding]; and, behold, a beam[total tripout] is in thine own eye[spiritual understanding]?

Really, what's the point, other then our entertainment, of this argument?
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
1—Genesis 13:16 and 28:14, Numbers 23:10, 2 Chronicles1:9 where number of dust is the symbol for a multitude
2—Genesis 18:27 where the living Abraham speaks of himself as dust
3—Exodus 8:16 and 9:9 where dust is the imputus of Eygpt's plagues
4—Numbers 5:17 where dust is the bitter agent in a test for an unfaithful wife
5—Joshua 7:6 where dust is the symbol for shame
et cetera, et cetera
1/2these aren't really variations, these are referring to man/men as dust, man is often likened to dust.because from it he was made, how advanced was it to know that the smallest little tiny things that make up dust, are the same that make up us?when did science figure this out?
3/4=actual dust
and 5, well i have no response!jj, it's actual dust too.

--S
 

Pah

Uber all member
It (the cursed ground) will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 With knife and fork
you will eat your food (thorns and thistles)
until the cows come home
and offer milk and meat.

The curse is the same as the biblical version - it did not change because adverbial phrases were altered.

That is a method of explaination and is in fact the answer. Parroting the scripture does nothing.to explain.

-pah-
 
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