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The virtues of caste system

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The Sage Vashishtha, Lord Rama's Guru, was originally a kshatria who became a brahmana (the proper term for brahmin) ---.

Riverwolf

It was Visvamitra who was a kshatriya who became brahmarishi -- the highest brahmin.

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atanu

Member
Premium Member
Today our modern standpoint is that the (Indian) caste system is an evil and should be abolished. ----, acts as an impetus to this developement for everyone. For the world as a whole peace outside is connected deeply with peace within.

Thank you A-ManESL

I commend you for this nice post, although I see that it has elicited automatic negative reactions... and that is probably justified, given the bad press that many spiritual concepts get in secular society. It is, I think similar to the way Jihad is considered evil and the way many concepts of old and new testaments are judged as evil. We can only try to put a few words and let people form their own understanding.

The main point is that all this spiritual teaching is to be applied to oneself and not for judging or awarding/punishing others. Of what varna I am is of importance rather than whether Mr.XYZ is a low caste fellow or not. Unfortunately finding fault elsewhere is a natural facet of society -- as if there is any society where there is no class barrier.

On the other hand, what Rig Veda, in Purusha Suktam and Shri Krishna in Gita say is that Purusha (the whole universe as the divine person) is of four parts: the thinker is Brahmana (philosopher guide), the khsatriya (warrior-protector), vaishya (supporter-nurturer business man), and Shudra (a service person like me).

Since God Himself says that He is all these four, it is unimaginable that a khsatriya, considering himself superior, should torment a shudra. Remember that all four categories are God Himself. Just as the idea of jihad is applied aginst ills of others and not to oneself, the varna is also similarly used -- often. But for those who contemplate on scripture for one's own good sees it in just the opposite way.

Second, the concept of varna applies to one's own body -- the localised purusha. The head is brahmana; the arms the khsatrya; the thighs; the vaishya; and the foot the shudra. It is taught that it is necessary that brahmana remains pure and never neglects his duty. and it is also said that shudra is sadhu (pure sage) who has no need to follow the religious dictates. It is true. The mind should be at correct place and the feet must not lead the mind. Thus when an impure Brahmin finds fault with a Shudra, it is the fault of Brahmana first and foremost.

Without understanding the full philosophy-science of Sanatana Dharma, it may be difficult to even appreciate.

For example, a birth does depend on past work of a soul -- thus a birth in the family of Henry Ford and a birth in the family of a Vedic preist are not same. Suppose, a Brahmin at the time of death does a grave evil thing, then he is likely to be born in a suitable environment to face the consequences. On the other hand, examples of shudra, vaishya, and khatriya who were elevated to philosopher class are well documented. Compartments were not sealed. In fact, great changes, positive or negative, take place when the compartments were/are breached by a person-group.

Ramayana was written by a shudra. Satyakama, whose origin (father) is not known is declared as a Brahmin, by another sage, simply because Satyakam declared without hestitation that he had no knowledge of his origin. It is said that adherenace to Truth is the only indication of a Brahmin. There are many many examples of such migration across the varna boundaries.

One's guna (mental makeup)-karma (work) determine one's varna at present. That is, the present inclinations and the present work determines one's varna. Without understanding the cyclic nature of the causal relationships of Guna-karma => Varna => Birth =>Guna-Karma --- the whole thing however may appear evil and unequal. As if the world is equal.:D

Sanatan dharma even now preaches that no time should be wasted in wasteful pursuits and that the goal of all life is moksha-liberation. Accordingly, the education plan for different varna pupils differed from the beginning -- from birth. While, Brahmins had a huge resposibilty and were the easiest to fall, Shudras were considered born pure and had not much obligations to fulfill.

I am not a supporter of Caste Based Social atrocities.
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Thank you A-ManESL

I commend you for this nice post, although I see that it has elicited automatic negative reactions... and that is probably justified, given the bad press that many spiritual concepts get in secular society. It is, I think similar to the way Jihad is considered evil and the way many concepts of old and new testaments are judged as evil. We can only try to put a few words and let people form their own understanding.

Interesting. Maybe we should create a new thread for this tangential matter. I find myself wondering if there is such a thing as an automatic bad press for spiritual concepts in "secular society", and if maybe it is something that exists in India but not here "in the West".

Because, let me tell you, I was very shocked by the assertion.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Interesting. Maybe we should create a new thread for this tangential matter. I find myself wondering if there is such a thing as an automatic bad press for spiritual concepts in "secular society", and if maybe it is something that exists in India but not here "in the West".

Because, let me tell you, I was very shocked by the assertion.

I fully agree with your shock.

The world is indeed very unequal -- to the senses. With or without religion, a tiger will prey on innocent cows ..... But what Gita teaches is different -- that the diversity arises from the unborn, which is homegeneous and which we call Param Atman.

Gita
13.28 Samam sarveshu bhooteshu tishthantam parameshwaram;
Vinashyatswavinashyantam yah pashyati sa pashyati.

13.28. He sees, who sees the Supreme Lord, existing equally in all beings, the unperishing within the perishing.

Samam pashyan hi sarvatra samavasthitameeshwaram;
Na hinastyaatmanaa’tmaanam tato yaati paraam gatim.
13.29. Because he who sees the same Lord dwelling equally everywhere does not destroy the Self by the self, he goes to the highest goal.

..........

So, the teaching is to attend to the SAMAM -- the equal substratum, and not on the unequal effects. The world is as it is, and there are natural differences all around.

Now, interactions in the world do not proceed from full knowledge but usually proceed from selective perceptions that suit. And this type of interaction amplifies the differences manifold.

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atanu

Member
Premium Member
I think, it will help to clarify that I am not glorifying or justifying the caste system but I am trying to bring out the basis of varna understanding. Varna, is the colored veil over the transparent and samam reality. The veil is created as per one's own guna-karma (mind and work).

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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It also took me a while to keep all the 'wolves' here separate in my mind...shadow, painted, river, etc.
 

Eliot Wild

Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
Oh, I see.

So every single person is exactly the same? Every single person can be a soldier, president, plumber, priest, programmer, mathematician, poet, novelist, etc? Everybody has the same mental capacities?
Everybody has the same physical capabilities?

People with mental issues and learning disabilities should be taught in the exact same classrooms as those without such issues, instead of separate classes that can give them what they need in a mode that they can understand?

(due to some internet issues, I didn't see this post before the next one)


Yes, that's what I said. I said everybody was "exactly the same" and that every single person can be a blah, blah, blah, blah ...

Then you accuse me of waging a "strawman" attack in which I target a caste system that was not discussed by you or the author of the OP when in fact I clearly stated on more that one occassion that I oppose any and all "caste systems", any and all systems that seek to impose social stratification on a population based on an arbitrary measuring stick.

Now you actually turn around and do exactly what you falsely accuse me of doing by attributing to me things I never said, putting phoney words in my mouth, essentially setting up a strawman of your own making.

Furthermore, you are droning on and on in this post about capacities and capabilities--essentially you're talking skills, vocations and professions. That is NOT "class" .

If people want to explore, improve and utilize their individual skills, talents, gifts and abilities, they don't need a caste system to do that. In an attempt to be fair to you, the author of the OP and to all advocates of caste systems, I did some brief impromptu research. But unfortunately, there is no way I can support this horrid concept you guys are advocating and defending. As I thought, every definition and online reference to "caste systems" I could find indicates it is a social stratification system in which one's social class is determined and separated by distinctions of rank based on heredity, wealth, profession, and other arbitrary, predesignated factors.

When you talk about allowing people to explore their capacities and capabilities, why in the world would you favor a system that separates people depending on their individual interests and/or skills into social ranks rather than just allow people to freely make indepedent choices?

And here's the bottom line--If you're caste system doesn't stratify and rank people aribitrarily by social class based on some arbitrary factors determined by religious writ or other arbitrary measuring stick, then it AIN'T a caste system. That is inherent to the concept of "castes"--a division and segregation of people into distinct social classes and ranks. If you're only talking about people freely choosing to pursue their own personal vocational interests based on their different skills and abilities, that is simply called the open job market. Duh!!
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
It isn't a contest to see who is worse, nor is my point defeated by America's faults.
Life will never be fair...but I detest a system which intentionally imposes limitations based upon family.
As for the US, I know many people who came from dirt poor backgrounds here who did well. Mobility exists.

Mobility exists in India also. There are also some benefits to being a Dalit in India. Many seats are set aside for them at the university. I know Dalit engineers here in America.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Mobility exists in India also. There are also some benefits to being a Dalit in India. Many seats are set aside for them at the university. I know Dalit engineers here in America.
I understand that India has made great strides against the caste system.
I laud their efforts. My criticism is of the system, not any religion or country.
I've worked with many engineers from India (mostly Sikhs), but I never knew
what caste they might be from.
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
To call that a caste system looks hollow.
We lack the intent to enforce a designated social & economic status upon an individual.
The term "caste system" should mean something narrower than a general lament that "life isn't fair".

When my Swedish nieces 1st came to America. They thought there was guns and drugs all over the place. The where surprised by the real America. If you go to India you will find the caste system much different then we think it is in the West.

Our system of class in America is based on wealth. The same is true in modern urban India. The traditional way of looking at the class system of ancient India is Caste. It is a completely different way of looking at things then ours. There is just nothing wrong with looking at society from a different angle. Nobody is saying that class should not be flexible.

I think that was the point of the OP. Who was not even a Hindu.
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
I grew up in poverty, including living for years in homeless shelters. I'm currently an electronics engineer.

Yes I know, and believe this about you. I also think that this gives you a special take on the world. I enjoy reading your posts.
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
I grew up in poverty, including living for years in homeless shelters. I'm currently an electronics engineer.

I agree that there is a vicious cycle of poverty, but I observe that it has more to do with social issues than financial ones, although money is part of the problem.

Impressive! And rare. I need to find the study, but apparently people rarely change classes - what you're born into is usually what you stay in your entire life. I wonder if I read that in a Gladwell book.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Impressive! And rare. I need to find the study, but apparently people rarely change classes - what you're born into is usually what you stay in your entire life. I wonder if I read that in a Gladwell book.
In Penumbra's case, I suspect that she was born an engineer.
There's no known cause for the condition, nor is there a cure.
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
In Penumbra's case, I suspect that she was born an engineer.
There's no known cause for the condition, nor is there a cure.

No cure necessary - delicious!

Though my adoration of engineers is thorough and devout, for the love of everything sane, must your Power Point presentations have 54 exhaustively detailed slides? Can you not prune? Why am I asking a man with 500 Hawaiian shirts?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No cure necessary - delicious!

Though my adoration of engineers is thorough and devout, for the love of everything sane, must your Power Point presentations have 54 exhaustively detailed slides? Can you not prune? Why am I asking a man with 500 Hawaiian shirts?
I don't Power Point (too hi-tech). But if I did, I'd suffer from the excessive detail you decry.
To tailor a presentation to the needs of one's audience requires understanding of people.
That's something which typically eludes us. Do you know how to tell if an engineer is an extrovert?
He (or she) stares at your shoes instead of his (or her) own when talking to you.
Some engineers learn to cope, & rise above their station in life....Gary Shandling, for example.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I grew up in poverty, including living for years in homeless shelters. I'm currently an electronics engineer.

Impressive (although at this point I have come to expect a lot from you. You are a most exceptional person). But while it speaks well of you, it bears little testimony about the virtues of the social or economic situation.

Among other reasons, because it is very possible that the situation has changed significantly since.


I agree that there is a vicious cycle of poverty, but I observe that it has more to do with social issues than financial ones, although money is part of the problem.

Money is a representation of one's repertory of possible choices. While there is a middle ground, the extremes of poverty and obscene wealth seem to be both gaining ground, which is most unfortunate and certain to bring a collapse of some kind eventually.

Trouble is, below a certain point of poverty it is not reasonable to expect people to have decent access to the means of improving their own situation. There is only so much that people can do without money in a world that charges money for nearly everything and leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to social support and justice.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Yes, that's what I said. I said everybody was "exactly the same" and that every single person can be a blah, blah, blah, blah ...

Sorry I misread you. It's kind of hard to follow aggressive posts (whether or not there are actual ad hominims) since they cause me to get riled, and thus make all kinds of dumb mistakes, such as not paying close attention to what the person is actually arguing, and thus making all kinds of fallacies myself.:sorry1: I'll try to ignore your more aggressive bits from here on out, and focus only on your arguments.

When you talk about allowing people to explore their capacities and capabilities, why in the world would you favor a system that separates people depending on their individual interests and/or skills into social ranks rather than just allow people to freely make indepedent choices?

I don't. I never said I favored even the original Varna system (which wasn't based on rank, by the way), and in fact gave three reasons why it doesn't work. But it was very much independent(theoretically), as it has been stated several times already that there are several instances of people changing Varnas in life, the specific one mentioned being Brahmarishi Visvamitra, who was formerly a Kshatria.

You only compared the system with various atrocities in history, which, while very much fair in reference to the modern system, is unfair to the original. The OP is all about what the original system was supposed to be, which is fine on paper, but not in practice. That's why I think comparing it to communism is much more fair, because of the fact that both of them are EXTREMELY easy to exploit by the power-hungry.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Among other reasons, because it is very possible that the situation has changed significantly since.

One of my friends is currently living in poverty. She and her mother are currently attending college (barely, from scholarships and whatnot), and working their butts off to get out of it.

So, it's still very much possible, it's just a LOT of hard work, which, unfortunately, our culture seems to discourage.
 
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