If I am not a sinner, do I need a savior?

Alceste · Mar 5, 2011

I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

Songbird · Mar 5, 2011

I don't think anyone needs one, many want one, and personally I love a man with a messiah complex.

Penumbra · Mar 5, 2011

There exist many people such that the world is a better place because they existed compared to if they had not existed. In other words, even if they have made mistakes, the magnitude of their good outweighs their bad.

A philosophy of total depravity or the need of punishment doesn't make sense when that much is understood. This is doubling so considering that people basically start from scratch.

Also, I was once directed a link that involved a quiz likely made by fundamentals that assessed whether I was a sinner and needed Jesus Christ. It asked me a bunch of questions, like whether I had ever stolen a piece of paper or masturbated and so forth, and of course it ended up that I needed saving. For curiosity, I retook the quiz and answered "no" to every single question, and it said that I lied and need to be honest with myself that I need saving. So regardless of the outcome of the quiz, the final result was the same.

Alceste · Mar 5, 2011

Penumbra said:
There exist many people such that the world is a better place because they existed compared to if they had not existed. In other words, even if they have made mistakes, the magnitude of their good outweighs their bad.

A philosophy of total depravity or the need of punishment doesn't make sense when that much is understood. This is doubling so considering that people basically start from scratch.

Also, I was once directed a link that involved a quiz likely made by fundamentals that assessed whether I was a sinner and needed Jesus Christ. It asked me a bunch of questions, like whether I had ever stolen a piece of paper or masturbated and so forth, and of course it ended up that I needed saving. For curiosity, I retook the quiz and answered "no" to every single question, and it said that I lied and need to be honest with myself that I need saving. So regardless of the outcome of the quiz, the final result was the same.

Yes, the impression I get from fundamentalists is that all roads lead to "you are a sinner". That quiz only adds to the evidence. In True Believer, Eric Hoffer argues that contempt and loathing for oneself is the primary driving force that causes "frustrated" people to join mass movements, including religion. If this is true, it seems that fundamentalists are so blinded by self-loathing they can not even imagine a person with a clear conscience and a healthy sense of self-esteem. Therefore people who do not identify themselves as "sinners" have to be lying or deluded.

But I've already run it by a fundamentalist and had the predictable response ("everyone is a sinner"). I am genuinely curious what Christians whose faith is not rooted in a desire to escape from a hated self might have to say.

Alceste · Mar 5, 2011

Songbird said:
I don't think anyone needs one, many want one, and personally I love a man with a messiah complex.

I'm generally more inclined to save than be saved.

Songbird · Mar 5, 2011

Alceste said:
I'm generally more inclined to save than be saved.

And I love you too.

Penumbra · Mar 5, 2011

Alceste said:
Yes, the impression I get from fundamentalists is that all roads lead to "you are a sinner". That quiz only adds to the evidence. In True Believer, Eric Hoffer argues that contempt and loathing for oneself is the primary driving force that causes "frustrated" people to join mass movements, including religion. If this is true, it seems that fundamentalists are so blinded by self-loathing they can not even imagine a person with a clear conscience and a healthy sense of self-esteem. Therefore people who do not identify themselves as "sinners" have to be lying or deluded.

But I've already run it by a fundamentalist and had the predictable response ("everyone is a sinner"). I am genuinely curious what Christians whose faith is not rooted in a desire to escape from a hated self might have to say.

For reference, here's a quiz. I don't recall if it's the one I took before, but the result is the same. Even if you pick all the answers they obviously want, if you select that you are "innocent", it says that it is incorrect.
NeedGod.com

ellenjanuary · Mar 5, 2011

No. If you're not Christian, you do not need a savior; I'm not Christian, I don't need to foist one on you. Besides, you're tao... you don't need jack-diddly.

Songbird · Mar 5, 2011

Penumbra said:
For reference, here's a quiz. I don't recall if it's the one I took before, but the result is the same. Even if you pick all the answers they obviously want, if you select that you are "innocent", it says that it is incorrect.
NeedGod.com

Ah, jeez. That's annoying! One answer allowed.

Watchmen · Mar 5, 2011

Alceste said:
I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

As a hypothetical (under Mormon theology), the answer is Yes and No.

No - because you are not a sinner there is not need of a savior to save you from spiritual death.

Yes - whether you sin or not, you still exist in a fallen world and your body will grow old and die. We believe the Savior saved us from both sin and physical death and, therefore, you still need him for the resurrection.

Thesavorofpan · Mar 5, 2011

Alceste said:
I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

According to Christians who believe in the original sin concept. Because you was born thus your a sinner.

angellous_evangellous · Mar 5, 2011

Alceste said:
I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

No. If you were not a sinner, you wouldn't need any work of Christ.

Katzpur · Mar 5, 2011

Alceste said:
I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

Thanks for telling us what you don't want to hear. That saved me some typing.

To me, Jesus Christ accomplished two things. One of them was to bear the burden for our sins, making it possible for us to return to God's presence without having to be punished for our sins. I think that's what most people think of when they use the word "savior." I see a second meaning in the word. I believe that it is through Jesus Christ that we are resurrected at all. In other words, if it were not for Him, death would be the end of our existance. The fact that He rose from the dead is how God has promised us that we will, too. That has nothing whatsoever to do with whether we've sinned or not, repented or not, believed in Him or not. Since Mormons believe in a pretty much universal salvation for all mankind (I'd have to explain that in greater detail for it to make total sense to you), I would have to say that even if you had never sinned in your life, you'd need a savior in order for your life to go on in another realm after you die. I don't know if that's an acceptable answer to you, but I can pretty much guarantee it's one you won't get from most Christians.

(Oops! I just noticed that Watchmen sort of alluded to the same belief.)

Alceste · Mar 6, 2011

Songbird said:
And I love you too.

* Swoops in to rescue Songbird. *

Don't worry, I prefer sinners. :flirt:

Alceste · Mar 6, 2011

Penumbra said:
For reference, here's a quiz. I don't recall if it's the one I took before, but the result is the same. Even if you pick all the answers they obviously want, if you select that you are "innocent", it says that it is incorrect.
NeedGod.com

lol - broken quiz is broken. Consider it "stumped."

Alceste · Mar 6, 2011

Watchmen said:
As a hypothetical (under Mormon theology), the answer is Yes and No.

No - because you are not a sinner there is not need of a savior to save you from spiritual death.

Yes - whether you sin or not, you still exist in a fallen world and your body will grow old and die. We believe the Savior saved us from both sin and physical death and, therefore, you still need him for the resurrection.

Well, thank you Watchmen, for providing an answer which is internally logical. You have no idea how much I appreciate that.

Now, hypothetically speaking, how does one know whether or not they are a "sinner", in your religion? Does somebody else have to go "You're a sinner!" or do you simply ask your conscience?

Alceste · Mar 6, 2011

Katzpur said:
Thanks for telling us what you don't want to hear. That saved me some typing.

To me, Jesus Christ accomplished two things. One of them was to bear the burden for our sins, making it possible for us to return to God's presence without having to be punished for our sins. I think that's what most people think of when they use the word "savior." I see a second meaning in the word. I believe that it is through Jesus Christ that we are resurrected at all. In other words, if it were not for Him, death would be the end of our existance. The fact that He rose from the dead is how God has promised us that we will, too. That has nothing whatsoever to do with whether we've sinned or not, repented or not, believed in Him or not. Since Mormons believe in a pretty much universal salvation for all mankind (I'd have to explain that in greater detail for it to make total sense to you), I would have to say that even if you had never sinned in your life, you'd need a savior in order for your life to go on in another realm after you die. I don't know if that's an acceptable answer to you, but I can pretty much guarantee it's one you won't get from most Christians.

(Oops! I just noticed that Watchmen sort of alluded to the same belief.)

Well I think it's a great answer. Thoughtful, well-reasoned, coherent, and- best of all - yours.

To take it a step further, then, suppose I know in my heart I am not a sinner (I do my best, anyway, and my conscience is clear) and I don't want to live forever in another realm? Truly, this world amazes me and I feel pretty satisfied. I don't actually feel like I need eternal life, as I already feel unfathomably fortunate to be alive at all. I feel exactly the same way about my post-death non-existence as we all do about our pre-birth non-existence.

So, as a non-sinner with no desire for eternal life, does Christ have anything to save me from?

Zardoz · Mar 6, 2011

Songbird said:
I don't think anyone needs one, many want one, and personally I love a man with a messiah complex.

... um, think he's a messiah or think he needs one?

The following may sound odd, given my religion label...

If one does not think they need a messiah, then they may well not need one. I do not believe in 'Original Sin' so if you have no sin weighing on your conscience, you may just be a good person.

If one has need of one, the most important messiah is... oneself. Each of us has the power to be one's own saviour, through repentance and one's own direct appeal to G-d. The gates of repentance are always open.

You need no intermediary, but if you feel you do then Providence will give one. Maybe in a form that is commonplace, like a Priest, maybe in another form.

Alceste · Mar 6, 2011

Zardoz said:
... um, think he's a messiah or think he needs one?

The following may sound odd, given my religion label...

If one does not think they need a messiah, then they may well not need one. I do not believe in 'Original Sin' so if you have no sin weighing on your conscience, you may just be a good person.

If one has need of one, the most important messiah is... oneself. Each of us has the power to be one's own saviour, through repentance and one's own direct appeal to G-d. The gates of repentance are always open.

You need no intermediary, but if you feel you do then Providence will give one. Maybe in a form that is commonplace, like a Priest, maybe in another form.

Another internally coherent, reasonable opinion! I'm glad you took the time to reply.

I have often thought that for some of the people I know, "salvation" might be just the thing. They are simply too lost, too wretched, too miserable, to find a way into the light without help. But of course I hope that they will not be absorbed into a cult that reinforces their self-hatred and / or exacerbates the symptoms of it. Ideally, they would get the needed help, become liberated from their self-hatred and turn around to help others in similar circumstances.

Kathryn · Mar 6, 2011

A person who was without sin would not need a savior.

That being said, as a Christian, I believe this:

22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

(from Romans 3)

If I am not a sinner, do I need a savior?

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Is not going to save you.

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