What or Who is Babylon the Great?

Kowalski · Sep 12, 2005

Babylon the great is the City of Rome, the clues are all there, Seven in particular is a reference of the Seven Hills of Rome. And 666, the number of the beast is derived at by the Greek System of gematria, which is giving numerical values to vowels and consonants. Although it appears that John got his sums wrong and the number of the beast should be 616, which would give Theos Kaiser. The most likely candidate is the emperor Domitian. It is known that in order to trade in the markets, loyal subjects of the Emperor had to bear a mark, and it is thought that is is John's mark of the beast. Also, Domitian was anti-christian and insisted on being called Dominus et Dues noster on his letters, meaning our Lord and God ordains the following, this is clearly at odds with the Christian view of things

Cheers

K

may · Sep 18, 2005

In the Scriptures, certain numbers have symbolic significance. The number seven, for example, is often used to symbolize that which is complete, or perfect, in Gods eyes. For instance, Gods creative week comprises seven days, or extended time periods, during which God completely accomplishes his creative purpose regarding the earth. (Genesis 1:32:3) Gods "sayings" are like silver that has been "clarified seven times," thus perfectly refined. (Psalm 12:6; Proverbs 30:5, 6) The leper Naaman was told to bathe seven times in the Jordan River, after which he was completely healed.2 Kings 5:10, 14.

Six is one short of seven. Would it not be a fitting symbol of something imperfect, or defective, in Gods eyes? Yes, indeed! (1 Chronicles 20:6, 7) Moreover, six repeated three times, as 666, powerfully stresses that imperfection. That this is the correct view is supported by the fact that 666 is "a human number," Thus, the beasts record, its "human number," and the number 666 itself all point to one unmistakable conclusiongross shortcoming and failure in the eyes of Jehovah.

Bennettresearch · Sep 18, 2005

michel said:
Everyone agrees that the book of Revelation predicts the fall of Babylon; what they do not agree upon is the identity of Babylon. Some say it is Rome, Roman Catholicism, a modern day world-wide church, or apostate Christianity as a whole. One thing is certain, the interpretation of Revelation and thus much of the Bible, hinges upon who Babylon is or was. In Revelation the coming of Christ, the New Creation, judgment and resurrection are associated with the fall of Babylon. To mistakenly identify Babylon is to incorrectly interpret these issues. Whatever one makes Babylon to be these issues are inextricably linked with her fall! Can we identify Babylon? Yes indeed!

Revelation 16:6; 17:1-6; 18:20, 24 tell us that Babylon was drunk with the blood of the prophets. This is a critical point! The term "the prophets" appears 88 times in the New Testament. The overwhelmingly normal usage of the term refers to Old Testament prophets.

Now the city of Rome, the Roman Catholic church, apostate Christianity, nor any modern world-wide church ever persecuted Old Testament prophets! But Babylon of Revelation did, therefore none of these can be identified as Babylon; it is just that simple! What city persecuted the Old Testament prophets and filled the Cup of her Sin by so doing? It was Jerusalem.

Comparing Matthew 23 with Revelation plainly reveals this. In Matthew 23:31 Jesus said it was Jerusalem that had killed the prophets; in Revelation it is Babylon. In Matthew 23:32 Jesus said the Jews were about to fill the cup of their sin by continuing to persecute those sent to her; in Revelation 17 Babylon has filled her cup by persecuting not only the prophets of old but the followers of Jesus as well, 17:6. In Matthew 23:35 Jesus said Jerusalem was guilty of "all the blood shed on the earth," 23:35; in Revelation 18:24 Babylon bears the guilt for "all the blood shed on the earth." In Matthew 23:36 Jesus said judgment on Jerusalem for killing the prophets would come in his generation; in Revelation Jesus said "Behold, I come quickly" 22:6, 10, 12, 20. Such parallels are not accidental!

Finally, the Great City Babylon is "spiritually called Sodom," Rev. 11:8; and the only city in the Bible--other than historical Sodom--that is ever called Sodom is Jerusalem, Isaiah 1:10; Jer. 23:14, Ezek. 16:44f. Babylon is also "where the Lord was crucified" Rev. 11:8. Jesus was not crucified in Rome, or by the Catholic church; Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem!

Source:-http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/preston-don_p_03.html

Hi Michel,

Very interesting challenge. I think it is a bit of hair picking however. The aspect of creating a mono-linear picture between the OT an NT has made the connection of Judaism and Christianity. You will hear a great many people refer to the "Judeo-Christian" religion. This was a point of contention to John in Revelation. Yes, Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.

`I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

Revelation 2:13

And so, this connection of Rome to the Jewish establishment in Jerusalem is why John is saying that the Church of Rome would continue to persecute and kill those in opposition. John was probably including his own fear of persecution in referring to saints and prophets who would be killed by the Church. John could not be specific as this would cause his writings to be done away with. It is all interconnected at this point.

1. The Jews and Romans both persecuted christians.

2. Rome exerted great influence upon christianity well before Constantine came into the picture.

3. The "new covenant", in Johns eyes, was not being represented properly by people resorting back into Judaism.

4. The point that John is making in Revelation is that the very forces that took out Jesus would in turn be the main representatives of His Church.

I think this more accurately represents the reference to being drunk with the blood of the prophets and saints. The new Christian Church would continue to persecute anyone who opposed them.

Hi May,

Excellent definitions of the numerological symbolism in the book of Revelation. Another that is used often in biblical terms is the number 40. This has been defined as simply meaning a long long time.

may · Sep 21, 2005

Bennettresearch said:
Hi May,

Excellent definitions of the numerological symbolism in the book of Revelation. Another that is used often in biblical terms is the number 40. This has been defined as simply meaning a long long time.

thats interesting about the number 40 do you have any of the verses that mention 40 ? i am not sure which ones mention that number

Aqualung · Sep 21, 2005

may said:
thats interesting about the number 40 do you have any of the verses that mention 40 ? i am not sure which ones mention that number

they wandered the desert for 40 yrs, it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, . . .

may · Sep 22, 2005

Aqualung said:
they wandered the desert for 40 yrs, it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, . . .

oh yes of coarse, thank you for the help i did a bit of study on the number 40 and came up with this
Forty. In a few instances periods of judgment or punishment seem to be associated with the number 40. (Ge 7:4; Eze 29:11, 12) Nineveh was given 40 days to repent. (Jon 3:4) Another use of the number 40 points out a parallel in the life of Jesus Christ with that of Moses, who typified Christ. Both of these men experienced 40-day periods of fasting.Ex 24:18; 34:28; De 9:9, 11; Mt 4:1, 2.

may · Sep 22, 2005

Disgraced in the eyes of all lovers of Gods Word of truth, Babylon the Great now waits on death row, as it were, for the execution of Jehovahs righteous judgment on her.

In his parable of the wheat and the weeds, Jesus spoke of a man who sowed fine seed in a field. But "while men were sleeping," an enemy came and oversowed weeds. Hence, the wheat came to be obscured by the weeds. Jesus explained his parable in these words: "The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil." He then showed that the wheat and the weeds would be allowed to grow together until "the conclusion of the system of things," when the angels would "collect out" the symbolic weeds.Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43

nutshell · Sep 22, 2005

may said:
Disgraced in the eyes of all lovers of Gods Word of truth, Babylon the Great now waits on death row, as it were, for the execution of Jehovahs righteous judgment on her.

In his parable of the wheat and the weeds, Jesus spoke of a man who sowed fine seed in a field. But "while men were sleeping," an enemy came and oversowed weeds. Hence, the wheat came to be obscured by the weeds. Jesus explained his parable in these words: "The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil." He then showed that the wheat and the weeds would be allowed to grow together until "the conclusion of the system of things," when the angels would "collect out" the symbolic weeds.Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43

I like this explanation. Thanks, may.

Bennettresearch · Sep 22, 2005

Hi May,

Very good scholarly study of Revelation. It is down toearth and not full fo supernatural mythos like a lot of other interpetations can be. I am stepping lightly on this subject that I have studied for a long time because John has some harsh criticism and it definitely will offend people to know just what he is saying. It will trickle out from me eventually.

may · Sep 23, 2005

it is my belief as one of Jehovahs Witnesses ,that there are many things in the book of revelation that have already come to pass, even thou the world in general do not recognize it, i believe that the Lords day (revelation 1;10) started in 1914 when Jesus christ was made king of Gods kingdom in the heavens and since then many things have happened to Gods people inline with the book of revelation. for any one who is interested to know , Jehovahs witness have a great book called REVELATION ITS GRAND CLIMAX AT HAND

Searcher of Light · Sep 30, 2005

One thing must be noted. Every generation has believed that the End would come in their lifetime. Babylon the Great like most of revelation falls under this. The fact of this illustrates that the End Times as its called has been going on since Jesus' ressurection.
If a person reads the Roman writers like Cicero etc, they see the city Rome being depicted much the same way as in Revelation.

may · Sep 30, 2005

Bennettresearch said:
Hi May,

Very good scholarly study of Revelation. It is down toearth and not full fo supernatural mythos like a lot of other interpetations can be. I am stepping lightly on this subject that I have studied for a long time because John has some harsh criticism and it definitely will offend people to know just what he is saying. It will trickle out from me eventually.

yes i agree that it will offend many to know the meaning of Babylon the great in the book of revelation , because i believe that this woman is the world empire of false religion and as there is only one true relgion that would mean the rest are not true, thats why we are told to get out of her,(Babylon the great)so we are not attached to her when she goes down

napen · Oct 3, 2005

To MAY:

i am really interested with the way you have interpreted the ten horns, i think you are correct...

i have come accross a website before, i think it is www.thename.ph with a similar interpretation regarding the book of the Revelation and the Name of God and the Real Jesus in the Bible.

Good reference for Biblical research, it will give you another dimension in Bible interpretation: direct reading.

hope you find the site...

Bennettresearch · Oct 4, 2005

may said:
yes i agree that it will offend many to know the meaning of Babylon the great in the book of revelation , because i believe that this woman is the world empire of false religion and as there is only one true relgion that would mean the rest are not true, thats why we are told to get out of her,(Babylon the great)so we are not attached to her when she goes down

Hi May,

Yes, this is spot on. I think that the most striking chapter in Revelation is chapter 13. It has been mythologized to the point that one is hard pressed to find good interpretations out there. I wonder how many people would go ballistic if they were to find out that the mark of the beast is the Cross? OOPS! Maybe I have said too much.

may · Oct 4, 2005

Searcher of Light said:
One thing must be noted. Every generation has believed that the End would come in their lifetime. Babylon the Great like most of revelation falls under this. The fact of this illustrates that the End Times as its called has been going on since Jesus' ressurection.
If a person reads the Roman writers like Cicero etc, they see the city Rome being depicted much the same way as in Revelation.

the last days ,according to the bible was the start of the end(of man ruling himself independent of God) and the start of the last days was in 1914 when Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom(goverment) in fact the bible calls it (the Lords day ) so it is for our time because we are now in the Lords day, so those earlier times were not the time for the last days as spoken of in revelation.

may · Oct 4, 2005

Bennettresearch said:
Hi May,

Yes, this is spot on. I think that the most striking chapter in Revelation is chapter 13. It has been mythologized to the point that one is hard pressed to find good interpretations out there. I wonder how many people would go ballistic if they were to find out that the mark of the beast is the Cross? OOPS! Maybe I have said too much.

well its interesting that the woman Babylon the great(the world empire of false religion) is not the beast but she is surpporting the beast by being a part of the beast ,she is riding it ,so it seems that instead of looking to God for salvation and trust she is looking to the wild beast instead , and do we not find that religion is very closely attached to political things ,instead of giving Gods heavenly kingdom goverment the only way to salvation .a mark identifies a person with something or someone and any who are still in babylon the great and have not got out of her will be identified with the mark.so i think i am right in saying that the mark is an identifing mark symbolicly speaking , just as the 144,000 in rev
And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads......this is a symbolic mark that identifies who they belong to and it is certainly not the wild beast or its image

blood-lord14 · Nov 29, 2005

may said:
well its interesting that the woman Babylon the great(the world empire of false religion) is not the beast but she is surpporting the beast by being a part of the beast ,she is riding it ,so it seems that instead of looking to God for salvation and trust she is looking to the wild beast instead , and do we not find that religion is very closely attached to political things ,instead of giving Gods heavenly kingdom goverment the only way to salvation .a mark identifies a person with something or someone and any who are still in babylon the great and have not got out of her will be identified with the mark.so i think i am right in saying that the mark is an identifing mark symbolicly speaking , just as the 144,000 in rev
And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads......this is a symbolic mark that identifies who they belong to and it is certainly not the wild beast or its image

yes i agree but also babylon was a righteous civilization torn asunder by liars and believers the event wasn't recorded in scriptures because of the title
THE SEPERATION wasn't a righteous title for most christians in the egyptian region.

may · Nov 30, 2005

Gods people are told to get out of her , Jehovah God always forwarns his people about things, so babylon the great is not a good place to be as she is going to be destroyed by God, and Jehovah always protects his people ,but of coarse it is up to us to listen to the instructions from God then we will not go down with her in the great tribulation

And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.....rev 18;4-5...............yes just as in earlier times when Gods people had to get out of litral babylon , now in a spiritual way Gods people have to get out

(Jeremiah 51:45) "Get out of the midst of her, O my people, and provide each one his soul with escape from the burning anger of Jehovah

(Isaiah 52:11) Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch nothing unclean; get out from the midst of her, keep yourselves clean, YOU who are carrying the utensils of Jehovah.......................yes Gods people should not contaminate themselves with babylonish teachings because it is dirty, and Gods people have to take on pure clean teachings we have been warned

FFH · Nov 30, 2005

BABYLON THE GREAT of Revelation is the CHURCH OF THE DEVIL. It is no more complicated than that. All those that follow or worship the Devil and do his will.

may · Nov 30, 2005

Faith_is_an_assurance said:
BABYLON THE GREAT of Revelation is the CHURCH OF THE DEVIL. It is no more complicated than that. All those that follow or worship the Devil and do his will.

so why do you think that she has a name such as ( babylon the great ) it is because she is the world empire of false religion with babylonish teachings
Such Babylonish doctrines as the immortality of the soul, a burning hell, and the Trinity were incorporated into the teachings of apostate Christianity. but dont think that only apostate chirtanity is at fault there are loads of religions that are contaminated not just christendom

Gods people are not in bondage to babylonish teachings

True religion has never been completely stamped out. There have always been truth-lovers throughout the centuries, some of whom paid with their lives for their faithfulness to Jehovah and his Word, the Bible.

Among the teachings prominent in ancient Babylon were: worship of a triad or trinity of gods, the belief that the human soul could not die, and the teaching that persons suffered after death in an underground world or "land of no return." The use of images also played a large part in Babylonian worship.

Babylon

the Great

Definition: The world empire of false religion, embracing all religions whose teachings and practices do not conform to the true worship of Jehovah, the only true God. Following the Flood of Noahs day, false religion had its beginning at Babel (later known as Babylon). (Gen. 10:8-10; 11:4-9) In time, Babylonish religious beliefs and practices spread to many lands. So Babylon the Great became a fitting name for false religion as a whole

What or Who is Babylon the Great?

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