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Does God Test Our Faith?

Bryan X

Member
Ceridwen018 said:
Hehe, If I were god, I would have ended it in the very beginning, ie, I never would have allowed it.

Well, if you were to do that, then the whole world would no longer be an "ultimate reality TV show" for you anymore. You'll still have to watch people "squirm" though. On the other hand, since no one is doing anything bad, you'll get bored eventually and you can always "whip yourself up with a deck of cards".

I think it's totally possible to have free-will without the choice of evil

Why do you think it's possible? Anyway, I disagree. If that's that case, then there is no free-will. God would have "programmed" us to do only good and not evil. You may want to think about that thing I said about being robots. Maybe you could build a concept about it. *wink*

For starters, god is omniscient, so he knew that men would be 'sinful' before he even started creating.

I really don't feel like making a long story short right now.
 
In creating us the way He does, God has already limited our free will and "programmed" us to an extent. I can't do anything I want after all....I can't fly, or turn invisible. Yet I still have free will because I can choose among various remaining options. If God created us in such a way that we cannot do evil, we could still have free will among the remaining good options. For example, I can choose between being a lawyer or a doctor, neither of which is evil. Wait, lawyer is a bad example...you get what I mean.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Lol, good point Mr. Spinkles. Yes, did you ever think that perhaps we are programmed to do either good or evil?

Well, if you were to do that, then the whole world would no longer be an "ultimate reality TV show" for you anymore. You'll still have to watch people "squirm" though. On the other hand, since no one is doing anything bad, you'll get bored eventually and you can always "whip yourself up with a deck of cards".
hey, like I said before, I don't even like reality shows. Watching people suffer is not entertainment for me...although it seems to be for god...

I do like cards though...that's a definite safe alternative.
 

Bryan X

Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
In creating us the way He does, God has already limited our free will and "programmed" us to an extent. I can't do anything I want after all....I can't fly, or turn invisible. Yet I still have free will because I can choose among various remaining options. If God created us in such a way that we cannot do evil, we could still have free will among the remaining good options. For example, I can choose between being a lawyer or a doctor, neither of which is evil. Wait, lawyer is a bad example...you get what I mean.

And I'm supposed to say ok I guess. Carry on...
 

true blood

Active Member
The fact of the matter is hardly anyone here who is flesh can communicate with God who is a spirit. You natural human beings communicate with each other by way of symbols, be they spoken words, pictures or sign language. These symbols communicate ideas and thoughts. But Spirit cannot communicate with mind, senses or reason as spirit and senses are two separate and well-defined categories. They are in two different realms and each must stay within its own boundaries. Can you at least agree with this? Trust me, I'm not trying to convert anyone and I really don't care what your personal beliefs are. I just want a common ground of understanding. Its been posted too many times by non-sons of God that they somehow can perceive a true christian perspective yet God says that thats impossible.
 

true blood

Active Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
In creating us the way He does, God has already limited our free will and "programmed" us to an extent. I can't do anything I want after all....I can't fly, or turn invisible. Yet I still have free will because I can choose among various remaining options. If God created us in such a way that we cannot do evil, we could still have free will among the remaining good options. For example, I can choose between being a lawyer or a doctor, neither of which is evil. Wait, lawyer is a bad example...you get what I mean.

Another misuse of the word "create". Also its interesting to note that after the rez of Jesus Christ, his new body could fly and could turn invisible, pass through objects and many other cool attributes. Also Jesus Christ was tempted to do every evil thing you can imagine yet by his own free will he chose not to.
 

true blood

Active Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
true blood-- I'm still not understanding why God allows disease...God can't take us back from the Devil on "legal grounds"? Are there laws that transcend God Himself?

More importantly: why do you believe that creation story, as opposed to the countless other ancient creation stories? What makes you think this one is true, and all the others false?

*edit* Bryan-- I wouldn't judge it as "too harsh" I just think any harshness at all is inconsistent with omnibenevolence....are you saying that the answer lies in the fact that God is not omnibenevolent?

Of course you cannot understand. All reasoning concerning God is spiritually discerned. God has made all the wisdom of this world foolish. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men and the weakness of God is stronger than men. God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty. And base things of the world and things which are despised has God chosen and things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are. I'm not interested in persuasible words of man's wisdom but rather in the power of God. It is written, eye has not seen nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of a man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him but God has revealed unto me by his spirit, for the spirit searches all things even the deep things of God. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit because they are foolishness unto him. Neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned. Also he that is spiritual discerns all things yet he himself is discerned of no man. Who here knows the mental perception of the Lord God?
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
The fact of the matter is hardly anyone here who is flesh can communicate with God who is a spirit
Why is that? Why would he make himself so distant?

But Spirit cannot communicate with mind, senses or reason as spirit and senses are two separate and well-defined categories. They are in two different realms and each must stay within its own boundaries.
Well then, if we are incapable of percieving or interacting with it, how do we know it's even there? Example: There is a flower pot sitting on top of your computer. You can't see it, let alone smell it or feel it, but I assure you--it's there.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men and the weakness of God is stronger than men
But if he is god, how is it possible for him to be 'foolish' or 'weak', even by his own standards? Isn't he supposed to be perfect?

Who here knows the mental perception of the Lord God?
God is not human. What makes you think he has a mental perception?
 
true blood said:
Another misuse of the word "create". Also its interesting to note that after the rez of Jesus Christ, his new body could fly and could turn invisible, pass through objects and many other cool attributes. Also Jesus Christ was tempted to do every evil thing you can imagine yet by his own free will he chose not to.
This can't be proven, and I am not Jesus, so this is irrelevant.

God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.
Actually, I am not confounded...it makes perfect sense. Humans like to imagine there are humanlike supernatural entities that they call "gods". Christianity is a monotheistic religion with one all powerful, all 'everything' god. It doesn't confound me at all....it's part of the human condition I suppose.

Who here knows the mental perception of the Lord God?
If no one knows the mental perception of God, why do you go around saying God is merciful, just, loving, etc? Why don't you be honest and say "I do not know the mental perception of God"?

Whoa? You're deciding a little too quickly on your judgement. Have you read the article?
No, I'm just saying pointing out an inconsistency--if you beleive God is harsh, fine. If you believe God is omnibenevolent, fine. Neither can be proven or 'disproven' but if you believe both, just realize you are contradicting yourself.
 

true blood

Active Member
That's my point. Neither of you know the Almighty Creator. Aye, Christ is not in you so you're right when you say you're not Jesus. How do you know "I" don't know the mental perception of God? I asked anyone else reading if "they" know. It's because of people like youselves God, with your disbelief, is distant to you. You both have spoken alot about the suffering in the world like cancer, sickness, death and cast blame on God, some blame the Devil, but in truth, its the fault of people like you.
 

Bryan X

Member
true blood said:
You both have spoken alot about the suffering in the world like cancer, sickness, death and cast blame on God, some blame the Devil, but in truth, its the fault of people like you.

You see, that's exactly what I was saying. I think it was this thread or another one when I mentioned that Atheists blame God for not doing anything about the bad things in this world. Then someone said how can that be when Atheists don't believe God exists. Yet, here is Mr. Spinkles and Cerid doing that very same thing. They deny the existence of God, yet they're pointing their fingers at Him. Oooooook...
 

true blood

Active Member
Atheism actually is the key to the final world religion as prophesized. The 20th century growth of Communism with its official religion of atheism and its dedication to materialism. Although the political idealism of Communism does not seem to be perpetuated in the end time, the dedication to atheism will prepare the way for the final form of world religion. Scripture has made it clear that this final form of religion will be atheistic, materialistic, and man-centered.

Even the idea of psychic communication is now considered scientifically plausible. Mediums now claim to have a special kind of communication with the dead as well as the living. They claim that spirits of those who have died can return as guides to give special insight into the past, present and future. Now days, the idea has been built that communication with spirits can be a positive experience and more and more people seek out these experiences. It has even penetrated the church itself. Psychics are becoming celebrities. With Christian faith and morality being discarded by many, a new trend toward atheism, spiritism and the occult are all following the pattern outlined in the prophetic Word of God.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Yet, here is Mr. Spinkles and Cerid doing that very same thing. They deny the existence of God, yet they're pointing their fingers at Him. Oooooook...
Ok, I think a little clarification is in order. I, as you have so perceptively gathered, do not believe in god. However, that does not make me unqualified to debate the logicity (or lack thereof) of other's beliefs, as you, likewise are not unqualified to question mine. That's what we're all here for anyway, is it not?

I, personally, am not blaming god--it just seems illogical to me that you don't, and so I am trying to figure out why that is.

You both have spoken alot about the suffering in the world like cancer, sickness, death and cast blame on God, some blame the Devil, but in truth, its the fault of people like you.
So god plagues the world with sickness and death because I don't believe in him? That's very interesting...considering the fact that I don't have cancer and some Christian somewhere does...

Scripture has made it clear that this final form of religion will be atheistic, materialistic, and man-centered.
Unfortunately, biblical prophecies don't have a great track record.

Even the idea of psychic communication is now considered scientifically plausible.
If you could post your reasources for this claim, that would be fabulous.

Mediums now claim to have a special kind of communication with the dead as well as the living. They claim that spirits of those who have died can return as guides to give special insight into the past, present and future. Now days, the idea has been built that communication with spirits can be a positive experience and more and more people seek out these experiences. It has even penetrated the church itself. Psychics are becoming celebrities.
Just because all of this is happening, doesn't mean that the idea of psychics are automatically 'scientifically plausible'. A good thing for religious people to note, is that just because a large number of people believe in something, doesn't mean the idea holds water.
 

true blood

Active Member
"Unfortunately, biblical prophecies don't have a great track record."

Give me some.

"If you could post your reasources for this claim, that would be fabulous."

do you know what the word plausible even means?

You blamed God once again...

Thanks for you "clarification" Cerdwin.

It's interesting how you "disect" one's post. I must of hit a nerve. Please answer this one question. Do you have a spirit?
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
do you know what the word plausible even means?
Yes, a synonym for possible and possibility. Last time I checked, science did not consider the idea of psychic communication to be possible. You claim that they do, however, and so to further my own knowledge I would like to check out your source for this claim. If it is not a scientifically backed claim, but rather a personal assumption of yours, I would like to know that too.

Thanks for you "clarification" Cerdwin.
I can explain further if you still do not understand.

It's interesting how you "disect" one's post. I must of hit a nerve. Please answer this one question. Do you have a spirit?
If I offended you, which by your response it seems I might have, I assure you that that was not my intention. You didn't 'hit my nerves' any more than anyone else does.

If by 'spirit' you mean 'soul', such as the kind of soul which lives on after death, then no, I do not have one...and by those same standards of science neither do you.

If by 'spirit' you mean a sense of 'spirituality', moral code, and sense of self--a sort of 'conscience' really, then yes, I do have one.
 

true blood

Active Member
My sentence may have been a bit vague. By plausible I meant likely but not certain. My claim was that psychic communication is apparently growing more valid in our modern times. I felt like you assumed I know of some special scientific source which I do not, however, there is scientific attention focusing on the matter. On the question of "spirit" I was refering to the Biblical meaning. And the standards of science view the word "soul" as "life" and in this case I don't see how its possible for "life/soul" to live on after "death". It's likely fair to say that since you knew not what "spirit" is you wouldn't have it. I see. Now you made a comment that Biblical prophecies do not have a good track record. Could you provide some info supporting your claim because I've studied prophecy...somewhat...and over half of the perdictions of the prophets have become true with amazing detail, and they were not vague and general predictions. My study of prophecy of Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Micah, Jesus and others who all perdicted future events in vivid detail, including every rise and fall of every major world empire have proved true within their lifetimes and many astounding ones seem to be coming true today and confirmed by the test of time. Just to name a few I'll note, Jesus predicted the persecution of the church, the fall of Jerusalem, the destruction of the temple, the scattering of the Jews into all nations, survival of the church, Israel reestablished as a nation have all been realized in history. Does science have a sure word about tomorrow? Does science have a clear answer? I'm becoming increasingly aware of a correspondence between the obvious world events and what the Bible predicted centuries ago. Back to what you were saying; what are some examples of a bad record of prophecy?
 
Bryan X said:
You see, that's exactly what I was saying. I think it was this thread or another one when I mentioned that Atheists blame God for not doing anything about the bad things in this world. Then someone said how can that be when Atheists don't believe God exists. Yet, here is Mr. Spinkles and Cerid doing that very same thing. They deny the existence of God, yet they're pointing their fingers at Him. Oooooook...
I'm not blaming God for anything. I'm just pointing out an inconsistency. The existence of an omnibenevolent, omnipotent being, by definition, is inconsistent with suffering and evil in the world.

What do I think? I don't think 'God is responsible'. I don't think there is an intelligent, conscious entity who created and is looking after the universe (after all, intelligence and consciousness are human characteristics). I think the universe just is what it is, and so we just have to do the best we can when faced with evil and suffering.

**edit** true blood-- science does not think telepathy is 'likely' or 'probable'. Some 'scientists' may say this, but there are bad apples in every group. Why, I'd be willing to wager there are some religious folk with whom you strongly disagree :)

The universe just IS....hmm...reminds me of that Bible passage when God says to Moses "I am that I am".
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
My sentence may have been a bit vague. By plausible I meant likely but not certain. My claim was that psychic communication is apparently growing more valid in our modern times. I felt like you assumed I know of some special scientific source which I do not, however, there is scientific attention focusing on the matter.
You correct that it isn't certain, but it is incorrect to say it's likely, for it certainly is not.

I wouldn't say science is fosusing on it more. If they are, they haven't reached any new conclusions.

On the question of "spirit" I was refering to the Biblical meaning. And the standards of science view the word "soul" as "life" and in this case I don't see how its possible for "life/soul" to live on after "death". It's likely fair to say that since you knew not what "spirit" is you wouldn't have it.
By biblical and Christian definition of 'soul', I do not agree that I have one.

Now you made a comment that Biblical prophecies do not have a good track record. Could you provide some info supporting your claim because I've studied prophecy...somewhat...and over half of the perdictions of the prophets have become true with amazing detail, and they were not vague and general predictions.
This was more of a sarcastic annotation on my part--I don't have any direct info, only heresay. I am interested in these predictions which you say were not 'vague or general' though.

Does science have a sure word about tomorrow? Does science have a clear answer?
Is that why you believe in the bible? Because it gives you a 'sure word' and 'clear answer'?
 
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