George W. Bush, war criminal

Genuine Realist · Feb 14, 2011

To Luis Dantas:

The probability of additional terrorist attacks was discussed everywhere. Obama Bin LAden had declared war on the West, and had effected a number of attacks in the preceding years. It's impossible to prove a negative - obviously - these bad things didn't happen because we did so and so. You can only investigate the might-have-been intuitively. But we have had a good ten years, for which we can all be thankful.

There are no diminished liberties of US citizens. The society goes on as riotously open as always, and more so everyday. No one ignored the Constitution, or violated it, or attacked it. This is the core of the myth-making I noted. Obama has continued most of the security apparatus in place, as will his successor.

Let me go further. As the new government of Iraq gains strength and credibility, and a push develops for consensual governments in Egypt and elsewhere, there is a PROBABILITY that Bush, Blair, and the neo-conservative approach were correct. I know it's unthinkable, but try.

tumbleweed41 · Feb 14, 2011

Genuine Realist said:
There are no diminished liberties of US citizens. .

Like I said....

tumbleweed41 said:
The Patriot Act vs. The US Constitution.
Amendment IV: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Patriot Act: The government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

Amendment VI: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Patriot Act: The government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

Amendment I: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Patriot Act: To assist terror investigation, the government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity.

Amendment VI: ... to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Patriot Act: The government may monitor conversations between attorneys and clients in federal prisons and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

Amendment I: Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech ...

Patriot Act: The government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

Amendment VI: ... to be confronted with the witnesses against him ...

Patriot Act: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them. US citizens (labeled "unlawful combatants") have been held incommunicado and refused attorneys.

Revoltingest · Feb 14, 2011

angellous_evangellous said:
Well, I could have been more precise.
The economic collapse could not have happened without the housing bubble and unbridled greed. The systematic deregulation of the financial industry beginning with Clinton (pbuh) and trickle down theory didn't help anything.

Sigh.....the housing bubble was a direct result of regulation. The fed required Fannie, Freddie (government creations) & private lenders
(by Community Reinvestment Act & other means) to lend more money at lower interest rates & lower down payments to marginal borrowers.
The fed also contributed to the bubble with favorable tax treatment, eg, tax deductable interest (even on 2nd homes), tax free capital gains.
Wall St shenanigans only caused their downfall after the housing crisis put them at risk. (I watched real estate rent & prices begin falling
in 2001 in my area.) Better regulation all around is needed, but unfortunately, Washington seems incapable of understanding what happened
& how to prevent its re-occurring.

But the unprecedented spending by Bush is absolutely true.
The doubling of the national debt is true as well. Just think of it. Our national debt doubled.

True, but he acted with bi-partisan support. So he was only one of many rascals.

I'm mad as hell that the Republicans want to do it all over again.

And you aren't mad that Democrats want to engage in the same?

It's insane.

It's not insane....just partisan faith based illusion - a complete absence of comprehensive & objective analysis.
A proper postmortem is impossible if blame is apportioned on a partisan & industry basis. We have many culprits,
with different risk factors in different industries. It ain't simple.

Genuine Realist · Feb 14, 2011

tumbleweed41 said:
Like I said....

The Patriot Act says no such thing - and has been been passed twice by Congress. It's not a ukase or Emergency Decree.

McBell · Feb 14, 2011

LuisDantas said:
You are aware that occupying Iraq in no way avenged or discouraged the terrorists who attacked the Towers, aren't you?

The fact is that the occupying of Iraq has done more to further the terrorist agenda than anything else.

McBell · Feb 14, 2011

Danmac said:
It is not the system that is bad, it is the corruption of both parties

Actually, it is ALSO the system.
The corrupt parties have corrupted the system.

McBell · Feb 14, 2011

Danmac said:
You ignore islams worldwide threat of terrorism, and distract us with Bush. How blind

Yet you ignore the FACT that Bush did nothing more than STRENGTHEN those he was supposedly after...

Hypocrite much?

McBell · Feb 14, 2011

The Voice of Reason said:
Did anyone else have to go into the kitchen and shut off the loud bells ringing on their Irony Alert when they read this post by Danmac?

I had to replace mine, again.

McBell · Feb 14, 2011

Genuine Realist said:
The Patriot Act says no such thing - and has been been passed twice by Congress. It's not a ukase or Emergency Decree.

Says you.
And hell yeah congress passed it twice.
Look at the powers it gives them...

The pariot act allows them to do pretty much anything they like without having to present anything to justify their actions before OR EVEN after the fact.
All they have to do is claim "National Security".
The really really sad part is that there are those like your self supporting it.

I guess ignorance truly is bliss.

Rainbow Mage · Feb 14, 2011

Like I said, this kind of thinking allows for the justification of any evil, and the Patriot Act is the proof. The Patriot Act allows for the government to justify any evil it does. We have become the very thing our founders detested and fought against.

The Voice of Reason · Feb 14, 2011

Genuine Realist said:
... [P.S. The above is about as moderate a statement as I think it's possible about the last ten years. My bet is that it'll be answered with all sorts of sneering contempt.]

As well it should be.

Genuine Realist · Feb 14, 2011

The Voice of Reason said:
As well it should be.

Your choice of handle is interesting. I suppose, ironic?

Genuine Realist · Feb 14, 2011

Mestemia said:
Says you.
And hell yeah congress passed it twice.
Look at the powers it gives them...

The pariot act allows them to do pretty much anything they like without having to present anything to justify their actions before OR EVEN after the fact.
All they have to do is claim "National Security".
The really really sad part is that there are those like your self supporting it.

I guess ignorance truly is bliss.

I'm anything but ignorant. But when I speak of myth, this is what I mean. There is, to the best of my knowledge, no one - not a single person - who can claim to be harmed or even inhibited by enforcement of the Patriot Act as such.

To Mestemia:

What encouraged terrorism during the 90's was the string of apparently unbroken successes that seemed to make Islamic fundamentalism the wave of the future. The reaction to terrorism in Iraq and elsewhere has reduced its appeal. Winners attract fans. Bin Laden himself knew this and noted it.

The Voice of Reason · Feb 14, 2011

Genuine Realist said:
Your choice of handle is interesting. I suppose, ironic?

Suppose away.

Based on your writings, I would say that your choice of screen names was probably sarcastic (at best) or simply misleading.

McBell · Feb 14, 2011

Genuine Realist said:
I'm anything but ignorant. But when I speak of myth, this is what I mean. There is, to the best of my knowledge, no one - not a single person - who can claim to be harmed or even inhibited by enforcement of the Patriot Act as such.

To Mestemia:

What encouraged terrorism during the 90's was the string of apparently unbroken successes that seemed to make Islamic fundamentalism the wave of the future. The reaction to terrorism in Iraq and elsewhere has reduced its appeal. Winners attract fans. Bin Laden himself knew this and noted it.

Where did you get your special glasses?
I need to get me a pair...

Genuine Realist · Feb 14, 2011

Mestemia said:
Where did you get your special glasses?
I need to get me a pair...

Glasses won't do you any good. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Just look around at what's going on in the world.

Rainbow Mage · Feb 14, 2011

So Genuine in your opinion how far is too far in our government's crusade against Islam?

Genuine Realist · Feb 14, 2011

Proud 2B Gay said:
So Genuine in your opinion how far is too far in our government's crusade against Islam?

When did I stop beating my wife?

The US hasn't engaged in any 'crusade' against Islam as such - as the residents of Kosovo and the persons benefited by the tsunami aid.

Rainbow Mage · Feb 14, 2011

Genuine Realist said:
When did I stop beating my wife?

The US hasn't engaged in any 'crusade' against Islam as such - as the residents of Kosovo and the persons benefited by the tsunami aid.

No crusade against Islam- what would you call it then? They've pretty much demonized everything about the religion and the media also demonizes it constantly.

tumbleweed41 · Feb 14, 2011

Genuine Realist said:
The Patriot Act says no such thing - and has been been passed twice by Congress. It's not a ukase or Emergency Decree.

Genuine Realist said:
There is, to the best of my knowledge, no one - not a single person - who can claim to be harmed or even inhibited by enforcement of the Patriot Act as such.

Recently, the House voter not to extend certain portions of the Patriot Act. This was led by both Liberal Democrats in opposition to Obama's promise to sign the extention, and by the freshman Libertarian Republicans.

And if you think "the Patriot Act says no such thing", then you are ignorant of what is contained in the Act itself.

You seem to concentrate what it has been used for so far that you know of, not what it allows.

George W. Bush, war criminal

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