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John 1:1 Discussion

Bryan X

Member
SOGFPP said:
Jesus Christ Claims to be God
John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus' statement in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus' statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.
John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."

John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" means the Father and Son are equal.

John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.


And so on and so on..............

Jesus claimed to be God or declared? Which one? And would there be a difference?
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
Hear o Israel the Lord is Echad/One. And the Holy See can Add. (He thinks)
I believe the Torah. No man may add. Elohim is one. Yeshua is the Word of Elohim, was sent as the Lamb of Elohim, Yah's Salvation/Yahoshua/Yeshua. The AV does not say Jesus said he is God. It says I and the Father are one. You nor I can't show how a man and woman become one flesh! How the Church is the body of Messiah. We will not know until the ressurection. Then we will be like Him. God may indeed be a Trinity! But the Bible does not say that. I will believe what the Bible clearly says and not what some man says it says. Yes God is one, Yahoshua is one and the Holy Spirit is one. Just as people say Body, Mind and Spirit, a triunity. But Man was made Dust and Spirit, a Nephesh/soul. The Greeks came up with the Immortal Soul, body, soul and spirit.
God chose the Hebrew, not the Greek. Man says that God chose the Greek language for the NT, God hasn't spoken on the issue. I believe Man and his evil inclination did the chosing. Each person has free will to go in any direction he chooses, I choose the way of Torah.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Bryan X,

Jesus claimed to be God or declared? Which one? And would there be a difference?
To Jesus, I imagine it was a declaration..... to those who heard it or those who don't believe, it would just be Him claiming to be God.... that's the only difference.

Peace,
Scott
 

Bryan X

Member
SOGFPP said:
To Jesus, I imagine it was a declaration.....

But you see, we don't really know that. That's just mere speculation, that's why you "imagine" it was a declaration.

to those who heard it or those who don't believe, it would just be Him claiming to be God.... that's the only difference.

To those who heard it and those who don't believe? What about to those who teach it(which would be MANY, MANY preachers of today)? They're always saying that Jesus claimed to be God, then they follow-up with some verses to prove it. Does this mean these preachers 'heard it' or 'don't believe it'? I doubt it.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Bryan,

I seem to be missing the point you are trying to make.

Of course I am speculating........ I do not profess to be 2,000 years old, so who in their right mind could tell you otherwise???????????

You are trying to split hairs with this claim vs. declared stance........ the issue at hand is that He was, and is....... God.

Scott
 

Bryan X

Member
SOGFPP said:
Of course I am speculating........

So I guess it's your opinion when you imagine that it was a declaration TO Jesus. :S

You are trying to split hairs with this claim vs. declared stance........

Am I? Sorry about that.

the issue at hand is that He was, and is....... God.

That's not the issue. That's what you believe. In the beginning, I said let's have a debate between those who believe Christ is God and those who believe He isn't God. I didn't start this thread off saying Jesus is God, period! So the issue is: Is Jesus God? What you said above is debatable.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Bryan X said:
What you said above is debatable.
I give up.......... If you are looking for an answer that CAN NOT be debated, I think you are going to be dissapointed....... short of Jesus tapping you on the arm......!

Peace,
Scott
 

Bryan X

Member
SOGFPP said:
I give up.......... If you are looking for an answer that CAN NOT be debated, I think you are going to be dissapointed....... short of Jesus tapping you on the arm......!

Peace,
Scott

That's fine with me.

FYI, I'm not looking for an answer. As far as being disappointed, I think both sides end up being disappointed with one another. Atleast that's what I witness of all the debates I've seen or been in on other Forums.
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
I certainly do not understand, a Spirit having a Spirit and those two Spirits having another Spirit sitting at the right hand of the first Spirit! I really don't think any sane person could or would believe in a Triune Spirit.

This issue is the issue that separates the Hebrew from the believers in the Messiah.
So God is One, besides God/Creator, there is no other God.
The Hebrew says God created the Aleph Beit, the first born of creation/Word of God/Torah, God spoke the Torah/Word of God and the Heavens & Earth were made.
John 1:1- 5 Says the same in Kabbalah.

When Yeshua taps me on the arm, I believe he is going to say to me and the others who reject a triune God, "Very Good! For upholding theTorah. How easy it would have been to join those False Teachers and teach others to believe in a false God."
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
Bryan X said:
As far as being disappointed, I think both sides end up being disappointed with one another. Atleast that's what I witness of all the debates I've seen or been in on other Forums.

I agree. Each side has its own views and beliefs and refuses to be swayed. Almost every argument about religioun boils down to a few basic debates: creation verses evolution, the validity of the Bible, or the existence of God (among a few other issues). And people already have their ideas, beliefs, and views on these subjects, refusing to give them up. And when the debate is over every side goes away wiondering how the others can believe what they believes.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
They say the three things you never talk about with other people are religion, politics and baseball.
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
That was before the internet, those subjects usually led to blows. Step over the line and I'll punch you in the nose!
And if you goal is to win! Bad attitude!
Share Truth! Good.
 

true blood

Active Member
One of the most beautiful and yet illogically interpreted scriptures is the first chapter on the Gospel of John. First of all, to say that Jesus Christ is not God in my mind does not degrade the importance and significance of Jesus Christ in any way. It simply elevates God, the Father of my Lord Jesus Christ, to His unique, exalted, unparalleled position. God alone is God. Now our very redemption, the crucial point on which all of Christianity rests, is dependent on Jesus Christ spit on, tortured, crucified, dead and buried, had to be a sheep from the flock. God would hardly qualify as one of our brethren, yet His Son could. I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the son of man because he had a human for a mother; and he is the Son of God because of his created conception by God. So on the basis of the parentage of God alone, besides his choosing to live a perfect life, Jesus Christ is by no means a run of the mill, unmarked human being. Thus to say that I do not elevate and respect the position of the Lord Jesus Christ simply because I do not believe the evidence designates Jesus Christ as God is to speak the judgment of a fool. It is he who sought me out from the darkness. It is he who gives me access to God; even now he is my mediator. It is he who saved me when I was dead in trespasses and sin. It is he who gave me the new birth of God's eternal life - which is Christ in me, the hope of glory. It is he who gave me remission of sins and continues to give forgiveness of sins. It is he who filled me to capacity by God's presence in Christ in all the fullness of God's gift of holy spirit. It is he who was made unto me my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. It is he who called me and set me in the heavenlies. It is he who gave me his joy, peace and love. It is he who appointed me as a spokesman of God's accurate Word. It is he who is all in all to me that I might give my all for him. It is he who is God's only-begotten Son. May I as a son of God live and die to glorify the God whom men can only know from God's written Word, the Bible, and from the declared Word, God's Son, Jesus Christ. I love him and the one and only God who sent him. May His mercy and grace continue to be yours as well as mine, and may God be magnified by our testimony of Him who gave His Son that we might have life and have it more abundantly. Yes, that life which is eternal and therefore more than abundant.
 

true blood

Active Member
A few words regarding John 1:1. Many have never questioned or given thoughtful consideration to the doctrine of the trinity. The idea is so well rooted that most seldom consider the implications of a three-in-one God. What difference does it make whether Jesus Christ is God or the Son of God? The importance of this difference is IF JESUS CHRIST IS GOD AND NOT THE SON OF GOD, WE HAVE NOT YET BEEN REDEEMED. The people who hold this idea that God is Jesus and Jesus is God substantiate their beliefs by isolating bits of biblical text. Genesis 1:26 is their initial scripture. Truly, this scripture is no proof of Jesus' existence in the beginning. Aside from 1:26, the basic scripture upon which the Jesus-is-God doctrine has been founded in John 1:1. This has been read and interpreted as follows: "In the beginning was God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. All three were with God, and all three were God." However the verse actually reads "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." You see, the question of John 1:1 is basicly who is "the Word" or what is "the Word".
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
yeshua is/was always the word of [yhwh]

the word of [yhwh] does not always refer to yeshua

for in acts we read"..the word of 'god' multiplied.."
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
Linus said:
In that case what about John 10:30?

John 10:30 - I and My Father are one

John 17:11,21 and 22, yeshua prayed to his father that his followers would be “one” as he and his father were “one.” I think it is obvious that yeshua was not praying that all his followers would become one being or “substance” just as he and his Father were one being or “substance.” I believe the meaning is clear: yeshua was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and his father were one in purpose, a prayer that has not yet been answered."..My doctrine is not my own, but his who has sent me.."

anything else?

--$
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
SOGFPP said:
As far as Scripture clearly showing the divinity of Christ, there are several ways to "prove" it. For example:

Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son:
1Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.

2Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.

3Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.

4Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.

5Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.

62 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.

7Jesus Christ Claims to be God
John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus' statement in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus' statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.
John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."

8John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" means the Father and Son are equal.

9John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.

continued below
 
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