Christian - Why most people follow Paul not Christ

NetDoc said:

Everytime I see this spread and read some of the inflammatory language leveled at Paul, I can see that is work is not yet finished. Some people would rather lash out rather than try to understand!

But if Peter accepted him, then so do I!

II Peter 3:15. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

In fact, Peter seems to think I had better try really HARD to understand the man!

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I agree pretty much fully . Paul taught Christ, and I don't think that I'm going to change my mind on that anytime soon.

It is truly amazing at the vehemence his Godly life still produces.

wizanda said:

I am very aware of the word judgement used in the bible
The thing is christ said not to judge yet most of pauls preaching is very judgmental
I am aware of the time scale invovled yet you forget that god has played a major role in the writting of the bible and so time is not important as he sees all of time as a moment
Christ said to show love to sinners and spread your light paul said have nothing to do with them
Christs church was in the people after his death 5000 people lived together as a community selling all they own and living as one
Untill Paul/Saul came along and lied and had stephen killed
Then Paul established a new church similar to the old
The thing with this whole thing is regardless of how many time i go over the bible the more i will see this as god showed me in the first place

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I assume you know that Paul was the first one to write anything of the collection of documents we now call the New Testament (about 30-40 years fter Jesus). None of the Gospels were even started.
Matthew wrote 100 years later with his own very special agenda in mind. He was 3 generations at least separated from anyone who had met Jesus or Paul.

Merlin said:

I assume you know that Paul was the first one to write anything of the collection of documents we now call the New Testament (about 30-40 years fter Jesus). None of the Gospels were even started.
Matthew wrote 100 years later with his own very special agenda in mind. He was 3 generations at least separated from anyone who had met Jesus or Paul.

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If possible, can you please supply sources to back up controversial statements that you make.

Right on Wizanda,

Awesome data, but a little overwhelming. Emishshaw also added some intriguing data as well. Too much to absord here at first sitting but I am going to study it.

As to those who thing that questioning Paul is unjustified, the very fact that it is Paul Paul Paul brings on the question. I have a particular problem with paul not ever quoting Jesus. The second question is that the Gospels are given validity according to their relationship with Paul. We don't hear from the opposition to make an objective analysis. This also brings the situation into question. Therefore, the Gospels themselves could be more influenced by Paul than Jesus Himself!

This one is for you Wizanda,

12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.

13 And he performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.

(Revelation 13:12-13)​

​

It is apparent that John of Patmos was a detractor of Paul.​

Well Emishshaw,

I would like to thank you for wasting my time looking for any text of Yochanon. Only blurbs and pieces and I still dont know where the heck your source is. Try to not assume that everyone knows just what the heck you are talking about. Or was your purpose to just overwhelm me with bull*#@&?? When you are quoting from obscure sources try to explain where they are from. Not everyone is knowledgeable about Jewish literature. Oh, and try to keep it a little shorter in the future because I think that everyone agrees that being blasted with pages of references in a debate is tiresome and makes them not even want to discuss the issues.

Well I am amazed I have not read some verses which would shed some light on this.
Let me muddy the waters abit. It seems that many have assumed that the words the apostle Paul wrote was his own words and his own thoughts. That is not the case. The apostle Paul was being guided, born along, or moved by the Holy Spirit according to (2Peter 1:20,21). Please notice what (John 14:26 ; 16:13) says,it says that the Holy Spirit was going to help the apostles to remember every word Jesus said to them while he was on the earth. This helps us understand how the bible can be accurate. It also helps us to understand that it was not the apostle Paul writting things in his owns words or his own thoughts. In fact, if we look at those scriptures in (John) we will find that all the words Paul wrote down were IN FACT the very words of Jesus which had been spoke to Paul while Jesus was upon the earth.Not only that but please notice (1Cor.14:37), Paul here says the things that I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. How about that,even Paul through his writtings told us the words he was writting down were the words of Jesus.

So when someone says Paul opposed Jesus in his writtings they do not understand the scriptures or how we got the scriptures in the first place. I am reminded of what we find in (Mt.22:29), you do err not knowing the scriptures,nor the power of God. Not only that ,but when we understand HOW we got the scriptures we learn that all the words of the bible were actually the words of Jesus himself
(John 17:8). So what Wizanda has purposed is that Jesus opposed himself (Mt.12:25). I do not think that is the case at all. We can understand the scriptures when we read them correctly with a good and honest heart (Luke 8:15) (Eph.3:3,4) (John 5:39). So many times when people cannot understand something in the bible they automatically think the problem lies with the scriptures,when most likely the problem is that we misunderstood the scriptures. Anytime we think two scriptures oppose one another we automatically know that we have made the error.

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth (John 17:17). Truth cannot contradict itself and still be truth.

God cannot lie - and Jesus was God on earth - (Titus 1:2). So in light of these scriptures we can be confident in the bible.


I hope I did not make matters worse. in love Baerly

wizanda said:

Has anybody else noticed how much Saul/Paul contradicts Christ and turned the word faith into religious belief



I have a lot of the scriptures in concern on my site and with out copying and pasting them all



I will try and explain some of it.

Christ came to set us free he was against the church and the way that the church cared more about profit, then love or wisdom


He asked that we remember him for sharing and through life as god is the lord of the living



After his death there were almost 5000 people living together as one, selling all they owned and putting it into the community.



Until Saul/Paul came along lied about Stephen and then had him killed



Christ said his disciples should drink just water, Paul made communion



He asked us to worship god, yet Paul added the confusion that makes people worship Christ as god



Christ said if there is sinners embrace them so that they might see through your ways how to be good



Paul told us to push out sinners and not to have anything to do with them



Christ said God would provide all we needed, which is true and if we lived more in touch with nature as Christ did then all would be free.



Where as Paul went back to work while he preached and said if you don’t work you don’t eat



Fair enough if there is someone lazy who does nothing whilst the rest work this is unfair



Yet if we lived as Christ had said we would work and live as a community and all do our fair share to fetch in the food and offer what talents we have



The way god intended, not the way the roman government wanted us to pay our taxes just to live.



Christ said not to judge and even he didn’t, yet Paul told us the spiritual can judge and should not be judged by anyone



Christ said call no man your teacher or father other then God, yet Paul told us he is the teacher or Christ is and that he had begotten us in Christ



This is just the start of it and there is a load more. If you question that the bible is infallible you have to remember that it was rearranged by an x-pagan and the roman church



Yet god doesn’t make mistakes this is why I feel that the vision Daniel refers to this



It also was made a proverb in Samuel is Saul among the prophets, a proverb meaning it stands for all off time



Christ also warned us against the Pharisees and that someone would come after him and change what he had said



Yet as what had been said by Paul was supposed to convince people into the church many haven’t noticed



I could add loads to this yet scriptures do it far better and let Paul condemn him self with his own words.

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I find these to be some rather bizarre interpretations.

wizanda said:

Has anybody else noticed how much Saul/Paul contradicts Christ and turned the word faith into religious belief


I will try and explain some of it.

Christ came to set us free he was against the church and the way that the church cared more about profit, then love or wisdom

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Actually you have explained nothing just offered up an opinion. Let's look at this though. You seem to be implying that Christ wished to do away with the Church since this would be in opposition to Paul's teachings (this seems to be the point of your post). If this were true let me ask you this, why was Christ constantly found in Church (temple or synogogue) at the proper moments?

While I don't think Paul was the object of the Antichrist writings, I also don't believe the apostles' bit about their word being an infallible chanelling of spirit and therefore perfect. They were under pressure to expand quickly as a religion and probably compromised some of their original values in their writings.

Ok to add to this and sort of to fill in the missing gaps:

The author of the Gospel of John was clearly a Pharisee, as many of the thing contained in his gospel contradict the other gospels and the Bible. In act we are told clearly that one of the high councils names is John....from the evidence contained it would appear that this was John Nicodemus or Nicolaitans which is form of Nicholas.
(which DOCTRINE we hate!)

Simon being named peter is not by chance and peter means stone and is not some name, therefore when Yeshua is a version Jeshua contained in Zechariah and it quite clearly states a stone is laid before to trip...Simon is false.....the biggest evidence against Simon is when Christ mentions Judas will betray me in fact he says they in Greek using plural about both Simon and Judas.

In Maccabees 4 (released in 1977, so please don’t quote when books were first published as if you know something about it; as how can any of us when the fact the abomination of desolation took place soon after Christ, yet none of us where aware until 1977 when they chose to release it?) where someone of the name Simon convinced the Romans to attack Israel and steal the gold from its vaults, then to force feed the eating of meat and wine....it is very likely this is the same Simon of the house of Iscariot whom are Pharisee generations.

Now given these extra bit Christianity is standing on very shaky ground that I will stop at nothing to fix....

When people obey the things written by the apostle Paul, who are they obeying?

I would contend they are obeying JESUS. Why would I say such a thing? The reason is because the bible says "the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1Cor.14:37). The apostle Paul wrote those words. So whatever he wrote were the very words of the Lord.

Either we believe it or we do not.

in love Baerly

No we can verify everything against scripture and then we see....
So he can not stand by Christ unless you say Christ is the destroyer?

As He teaches Christ was a sacrifice for sin, is to teach as Balaam, that god would sacrifice his own son...
so clearly in violation of many scriptures...
So do you attribute that Christ said them things or did Christ say where it says and jesus says "this"...??
normally that is how things work in a court of law....and since this is the books of law...it should be looked at with this same context...
you can not make up the part that were missing as Paul often tries.

Then on the second point of being just like Balaam, Paul repeatedly had an angel of light visit him and tell him not to continue….angels of light throughout the Bible are sent by heaven…Christ appears it is said to Paul as an angel of light….
Balaam had an *** that kept trying to stop him, so Balaam walked around it….

Well in Paul’s case he goes as far to claim an angel of light is the devil.
Well considering there is no such thing, then that would mean Paul as Balaam denied God and claimed to you it was the devil.

Paul is the great deceiver Wizanda and for the most you and I do not agree, however on this occasion we are of the same mind. Paul is the cause for the removal of compliance with the Law. Christ himself adhered to the Laws and taught that we are to follow them. We are also told to walk as Jesus walked, in the Law. Paul the Pharisee does not walk in the Law and rather then make an attempt he decides to walk in the path of the worldly.

Wizanda where does your spite for the acts of Balaam come from?

So the orthodox in their denoucing of the neccesity of the Law make the chsoe to follow the deceiver rather than Yeshua.

I had a vision where it happened for real to me, I was there and Christ, they stabbed me in the side and blood and water came out…. pain wasn't the problem...my mums was...i couldn't stop her heart breaking, being sent from heaven you know where you are going and have no fear...yet when your mother who has loved you all your life and cared for you is heart broken and all she can do is watch her son bleed to death; with a Roman garrison laughing at her side, it hurts to the core of my soul still.

wizanda said:

I had a vision where it happened for real to me, I was there and Christ, they stabbed me in the side and blood and water came out…. pain wasn't the problem...my mums was...i couldn't stop her heart breaking, being sent from heaven you know where you are going and have no fear...yet when your mother who has loved you all your life and cared for you is heart broken and all she can do is watch her son bleed to death; with a Roman garrison laughing at her side, it hurts to the core of my soul still.

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this is blasphemy to claim you were not only joined with the corporal son of God but that you to experienced the pain that cleansed man kind

as well this holds no point to the original thread and should any moderators be on this thread i would hope that this can be removed