Ask Gnostics about perspectives on God and Jesus

There seems to be a good deal of curiosity about this, so I'm opening this thread for respectful questions and dialogue. Do Gnostics view Jehovah as evil? Do Gnostics believe Jesus is God? Do we believe he died for sins? Ask it all here, and keep in mind Gnosticism is a broad spectrum.

No takers? Wow

How do you view Jesus' nature in relation to other people? For example, was he fully human, fully divine, and so on, and are qualities such as being humans divine [or one WITH the Divine] a common view within Gnosticism, or is it against Gnostic thought?

Odion said:

How do you view Jesus' nature in relation to other people? For example, was he fully human, fully divine, and so on, and are qualities such as being humans divine [or one WITH the Divine] a common view within Gnosticism, or is it against Gnostic thought?

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As I said Gnosticism is a broad spectrum, but for myself, and for the majority of Valentinian Gnostic thought Jesus was fully human and fully divine. I prefer to think of him in the way Hindus think of Krishna, as something like an avatar.

As for humans being one with the divine. Yes and no. The divine is within humans certainly. Christ-consciousness is a good word for it. This is what Jesus was an incarnation of, the Christ-consciousness.

There were some Gnostic groups, just to add, that did not think everyone was one with the Father, but only that some people were. This idea of election is based on the Gospel of Thomas, a few verses, but I personally reject it.

Thomas A: Jesus said: "If you have that thing within you, what you have within you will save you. If you lack that thing, then what you lack will kill you."

Thomas B: Jesus said: "If people ask you who you are and where you come from, say to them: We come forth from that which is whole, from the place where the light came into being on it's own accord, and we are children of the living Father."

Ahh, I see!

I totally understand. Thanks for sharing.

What is the Gnostic take on the crucifixion?

Ebionites were a more traditional Christian denomination with heavy gnostic influence.

Odion said:

What is the Gnostic take on the crucifixion?

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It widely varies, from purely philosophical interpretations treating it as a metaphor, to approaches in which Jesus was not really human and therefore not crucified, or that there were two Jesuses or even twins and someone other than Jesus was crucified. This latter idea may have been in vogue around the time of Muhammed, as it is picked up as the version of the story of the crucifixion we find in the Qu'ran.

Odion said:

What is the Gnostic take on the crucifixion?

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Again, you will get a wide scope of answers. Some Gnostics quite literally believe there was no crucifixion at all. Some believe it was an illusion. Some believe it was the death of Jesus' physical body, so that he was liberated from this carnal existence. About the only thing most Gnostics agree on is that the crucifixion wasn't some kind of atonement.

Gnostics do not believe in sin, hence an atonement is rendered wholly unnecessary. However, once or twice I might have encountered a few Gnostics with a really extrodinary belief, the idea that Jesus willingly sacrificed himself to Jehovah to free his people from bondage to Jehovah's law. That comes close to an atonement theology, except that these Gnostics didn't think Jehovah was a good god.

Personally I see the crucifixion as a symbol, an allegory. Yes I believe Jesus actually died, but the ultimate parable is in his death. For whatever reason, this man's death so strongly impressed in his followers that the death of this body isn't final, that it's ultimately an illusion.

To me the crucifixion can be a symbol of the fact that death of this body is an illusion, not truly death. I don't need to believe in an atonement to make an excuse for his death, because he did nothing worthy of death is the fact. It's terrible to take the death of a good and innocent man wrongly accused and try to give it a meaning such as the atonement, just so the death can be miraculous.

I see Jesus in the crucifixion as having overcome fear of death, a step to enlightenment. It is clearly allegorical, because some of the mystic teachings of St. Paul were based on it, such as, we are crucified with Christ and raised into newness of life. Was Paul not speaking of enlightenment, of being raised into a newness of mind?

St. Paul was perhaps the best friend of Gnosticism, and some think he was anti-Gnostic. All the Gnostic fathers like Marcion for example loved Paul.

I'm only really willing to speak for myself, and anything I say in this thread is my own personal view (unless mentioned otherwise) and shouldn't be held against gnostics in general.

Odion said:

How do you view Jesus' nature in relation to other people? For example, was he fully human, fully divine, and so on,

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I see this as a historical question rather than a religious one, and one without enough documentation to answer it properly. I suspect fully human though, as there don't seem to be any divine beings running around right now, and one off events are unlikely.

It should be noted that the scriptures seem to talk about both. A divine figure who existed since before the world did, and a human figure with a human father.

Odion said:

What is the Gnostic take on the crucifixion?

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More history stuff for the most part. A crucifixion seems a very Roman solution to people they didn't understand, Jesus wouldn't have been the first or the last spiritual leader to get that. Physical resurrections are right out in my opinion, but I see no reason a spiritual one couldn't have happened (IE a Ghost Jesus instead of a Zombie Jesus).

I fully agree with the above post about a spiritual ressurection.

"kick

Egyptian Phoenix said:

As I said Gnosticism is a broad spectrum, but for myself, and for the majority of Valentinian Gnostic thought Jesus was fully human and fully divine. I prefer to think of him in the way Hindus think of Krishna, as something like an avatar.

As for humans being one with the divine. Yes and no. The divine is within humans certainly. Christ-consciousness is a good word for it. This is what Jesus was an incarnation of, the Christ-consciousness.

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The Gnostics consider Jesus to be a man, who fully had the Holy Spirit within.

Gnosticism is quite similar to mysticism. That is, man has the capability to commune and combine with God.

In the Bhagavad Gita, the Hindu Holy Book, Krishna says he is the Supreme Being, and he speaks of Krishna-consciousness.

ImmortalPhoenix said:

The Gnostics consider Jesus to be a man, who fully had the Holy Spirit within.

Gnosticism is quite similar to mysticism. That is, man has the capability to commune and combine with God.

In the Bhagavad Gita, the Hindu Holy Book, Krishna says he is the Supreme Being, and he speaks of Krishna-consciousness.

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No I think you'll find many Gnostics considered and do consider Jesus to be God, the supreme being, as substantiated by the Gospel of Thomas:

Jesus said: "I come forth from that which is whole, from the place where the light came into being of itself. Split a piece of a wood and I am there, lift a rock and you will find me."


Also I will remind you, this is a DIR, which means no debating. Just respectful questions.

Okay, then let me rephrase.

What drew me to Christian Gnosticism was the notion or fact that Jesus was a man, and that they believe all of mankind can reach that state of perfection. I believe this notion of Christian Gnosticism was the original form of Christianity before the Roman Emperor Constantine, who wasn't Christian, set up the Orthodox views around 500 A.D.

I've read a little about the dualities, and there being a good God, and a Bad God, but the bible clearly states there is One God through all, in all. It seems like there are even different sects of Gnostic Christians. It seems much easier to say you don't have a religion, then to belong to a set cult.

That is correct, there are many different forms of Christian Gnosticism, however, prior to Constantine, they all considered themselves Christians. Gnostic is a title given to us by our opponents, referring to our commonly shared belief in enlightenment by knowledge. However, I am content in letting Christians have the title.

The view of attaining spiritual perfection is listed in these scrpitures:
Jesus said, "You are to be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect."

(Hebrews 10: 26, 28) "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?"

Furthermore:
I Peter 2:24) "He bore our sins in his body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness."

(Galatians 2:20) "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God."

(Galatians 5:23) "Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."

(John 8:36) "If the Son shall make you free, you will be free indeed."

(Ephesians 4:7-8, 14) "To each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. When he ascended on high, he led captive a host of captives."

(Titus 2:11-12) "For the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness, and worldly desires and to live sensibly righteously and godly in the present age."

(II Corinthians 5:10) "For we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

Well Immortal Phoenix, I remind you this is a DIR, and not a debate section. It says "Gnostic DIR". That being said, not all Gnostics believed in a good and bad god. That also varied by group.

Some Gnostics just believed the Jews had mistaken ideas about their god, but still believed the Jewish god and father of Jesus were the same.

Oh, I see how you could assume I was debating. I was just stating my understanding, along with scriptures that support my thesis that the Gnostic view of Jesus being a man, and attaining spiritual perfection is open to all men.