Should teaching eternal hell be a crime?

839311 said:

I really enjoyed reading your belief that I will be saved from death by a god. Its comforting. In the current religious atmosphere its especially refreshing to hear that God will save everyone. If ony I had been exposed to this kind of thinking at the start of my own Christian journey.

The exact opposite is true of religions that preach eternal torment. I feel like I am being threatened by them. I feel like they are targeting my fears with their primitive, insane belief. I hope that I don't ever hear anyone tell me that I am going to hell again, although I know that I will. It makes my blood boil to listen to someone threatening me like that. Its extremely offensive.

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Just based on economics and manpower alone the task you ask of would be monstrous in its implementation and near impossible to actually apply.

You are asking society to legislate common sense and parenting, which while admirable in it's intentions is a terrible idea when actually applied to reality. It's kind of like eugenics, seems good on paper to a lot of people but no it never works and never will.

You are expecting that the government would not immediately apply it's own interpretations to what "common sense" is and madly abuse the power they are given. They aren't just going to stick to your personal dislikes and discriminations.

839311 said:

Isn't the end result the same? I don't think it matters much whether you tell someone just one time that you will injure them next week, or whether you tell them every day of the week that on sunday you will harm them. You still end up with a person who is worried, perhaps terrified, because of the threat(s).

Same thing as above. What if the guy tells you that if you don't believe then him and his friends will come visit you next week and hurt you. In either case, you are being threatened with physical harm in the future. Neither of us would take the threat of eternal hell seriously if it were made to us, but the next person might. That person might continue to think about it all throughout that day, becoming more and more fearful as his uncertainty regarding his eternal soul grows. Threatening someone with physical harm is illegal. Yet, that is exactly what the preaching of eternal hell is - a threat of physical harm that many people genuinly become fearful of.

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No, it's not the same.

In both of these examples, the person making the statement is making a direct threat that they themselves will supposedly fulfill. Telling someone that you will injure them is generally illegal, because it's a personal threat of violence to be fulfilled by the person making the statement.

Teaching hell is usually not a direct threat. It's like saying to a kid, "This isn't a very good neighborhood, so don't play outside after dark because it's dangerous." (Except that hell is untrue, but people who believe it didn't get the memo.)

no-body said:

Just based on economics and manpower alone the task you ask of would be monstrous in its implementation and near impossible to actually apply.

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How would it be monstrous in its implementation?

It would be tough to actually prosecute people for this. But I think it would be a step in the right direction. Not everyone drives 100 in a 50 zone, but most people do think twice before breaking the law. I think that our societies recognition that preaching eternal hell is a crime will also have an effect on people. Just talking about it and condemning it is a good thing.

no-body said:

You are asking society to legislate common sense and parenting, which while admirable in it's intentions is a terrible idea when actually applied to reality. It's kind of like eugenics, seems good on paper to a lot of people but no it never works and never will.

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Well again I am not just talking about preaching eternal hell to kids. Im talking about preaching it to everyone.

Its harder to control abuse done in the home rather than being abused at work or in a store. We know that kids are often quiet about the abuse they receive from their parents. Adults are generally far more likely to fight back or report the incident of abuse.

Its a protection that people should have, even if that protection isn't going to be nearly as effective as we'd like it to be. But Im convinced it will have a beneficial effect. For instance, an adult might report a preacher and press charges against her. If she is fined, say, $500, then she might think twice before preaching eternal torment to someone else. Instead she might be inclined to preach about some issue of morality. She may feel embarrassed in court. Perhaps she would come to her senses and realize just how seriously harmful her threats are. Maybe enforcing this law against religious harrassment will have more of a positive effect than we think.

no-body said:

You are expecting that the government would not immediately apply it's own interpretations to what "common sense" is and madly abuse the power they are given. They aren't just going to stick to your personal dislikes and discriminations.

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Im not talking about common sense, Im talking about harrassment.

They already prosecute people for crimes that I personally don't have as much interest in. And Im not discriminating against them. I simply don't want religions to have immunity with regards to a law that I think they are clearly breaking. I hope that the state finds the good sense to make it clear that harrassment done in the name of religion is a crime.

Penumbra said:

No, it's not the same.

In both of these examples, the person making the statement is making a direct threat that they themselves will supposedly fulfill. Telling someone that you will injure them is generally illegal, because it's a personal threat of violence to be fulfilled by the person making the statement. Teaching hell is usually not a direct threat.

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It doesn't have to be a direct threat to be illegal, and for good reason. I would be equally as worried by someone who promised to beat me up, or by someone who promised that their friend would beat me up. In both cases the law is broken.

839311 said:

How would it be monstrous in its implementation?

It would be tough to actually prosecute people for this. But I think it would be a step in the right direction. Not everyone drives 100 in a 50 zone, but most people do think twice before breaking the law. I think that our societies recognition that preaching eternal hell is a crime will also have an effect on people. Just talking about it and condemning it is a good thing.

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What country is it you live in exactly? It can't be the U.S. and I honestly can't think of any country where you would actually have a shot at getting this put into law and have it pass.

Well again I am not just talking about preaching eternal hell to kids. Im talking about preaching it to everyone.

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:areyoucra

Its harder to control abuse done in the home rather than being abused at work or in a store. We know that kids are often quiet about the abuse they receive from their parents. Adults are generally far more likely to fight back or report the incident of abuse.

Its a protection that people should have, even if that protection isn't going to be nearly as effective as we'd like it to be. But Im convinced it will have a beneficial effect. For instance, an adult might report a preacher and press charges against her. If she is fined, say, $500, then she might think twice before preaching eternal torment to someone else. Instead she might be inclined to preach about some issue of morality. She may feel embarrassed in court. Perhaps she would come to her senses and realize just how seriously harmful her threats are. Maybe enforcing this law against religious harrassment will have more of a positive effect than we think.Im not talking about common sense, Im talking about harrassment.

They already prosecute people for crimes that I personally don't have as much interest in. And Im not discriminating against them. I simply don't want religions to have immunity with regards to a law that I think they are clearly breaking. I hope that the state finds the good sense to make it clear that harrassment done in the name of religion is a crime.

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I'm honestly not sure what plane of reality you live in. You can't have people arrested just because you don't like their ideas. I've already gone into why. Telling someone they are going to hell after they die because they are on the wrong path isn't harassment, it's an opinion. A terrible one I'll grant you but I in no way see how it's a threat.

839311 said:

It doesn't have to be a direct threat to be illegal, and for good reason. I would be equally as worried by someone who promised to beat me up, or by someone who promised that their friend would beat me up. In both cases the law is broken.

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It's broken because they're still in on it. It's still reasonably direct.

"I'll beat you up."
"I'll get my friends to beat you up."
"My boyfriend is going to beat you up."

are direct threats.

"If you go out at night, there are guys in this neighborhood that might beat you up." is not a threat.

Even if it was we would have to go on teaching it.

Penumbra said:

It's broken because they're still in on it. It's still reasonably direct.

"I'll beat you up."
"I'll get my friends to beat you up."
"My boyfriend is going to beat you up."

are direct threats.

"If you go out at night, there are guys in this neighborhood that might beat you up." is not a threat.

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I Agree.

"My god will torment you forever if you don't believe in my religion."

is a direct threat. Do you think that Christians preaching this are not in on it? They are very much in on it. They are a part of this imagined organization that has their tyrannical dictator at the top, with humans carrying out his work on earth. And preaching, "Praise be to god! Torturing people forever is perfectly good because god is perfectly good! Unbelievers, repent, or your fate lies in the eternal, fiery pits of hell!" Its insane.

839311 said:

I Agree.

"My god will torment you forever if you don't believe in my religion."

is a direct threat. Do you think that Christians preaching this are not in on it? They are very much in on it. They are a part of this imagined organization that has their tyrannical dictator at the top, with humans carrying out his work on earth. And preaching, "Praise be to god! Torturing people forever is perfectly good because god is perfectly good! Unbelievers, repent, or your fate lies in the eternal, fiery pits of hell!" Its insane.

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I agree that people who preach, believe, and condone such a thing are, basically by definition, rather immoral. Their religions are reflections of their internal state of affairs.

But what you present here is a straw man in most regards. The majority of people who believe in hell don't phrase it as such. They believe in their religion, they have twisted immorality, and they pass it along. The ideas they are spreading are both incorrect and harmful, but they're typically not threats and shouldn't be treated as such.

They're not "in" on it in the sense that they are making threats that they themselves will carry out or contribute to. They're stating how they think things are (and most of them condone such absurdity).

Banning teaching of hell is a huge infringement of free speech, since it's essentially making illegal the religious beliefs of a good chunk of the world. Most Muslims and a significant percentage of Christians would have their religion effectively banned. Parts of the Bible and Qur'an would have to be removed or re-written, which is a very poor and troubling solution.

numbers said:

They should be fined, for starters, if they teach eternal hell.

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Or if they teach there is no God... There is good reason parents are allowed to determine the upbringing of their children. Because this place would be a cluster---- if we started getting into the business of telling parents what to do, exception is extreme cases which teaching hell does not come anywhere near close to.

The most pertinent point you need to understand is, if any parental teaching is going to be banned in America, it won't be Christian.

No, and I don't like how some Christians want to make teaching evolution in schools illegal either.

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Exactly, don't try to tell me how to raise my kids and I'll afford the same courtesy to you, no matter how wrong you are

I also disagree with banning teaching evolution.

I don't buy that for a second. Sadness, yeah. But I am certain that it also made you afraid at one point or another.

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Believe it or don't, my childhood did not contain a fear of hell... when I thought about it, it was where they were going, not a potential place for me

A large majority of people in America were brought up Christian and the majority of those were/are not traumatized by their Christian childhood which likely included an idea of hell at some point.

It sounds to me that you are saying that teaching muslims to hate Americans is alright?

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Yes, it is.

Teaching them that strapping 20 sticks of dynamite to themselves and blowing themselves up in a crowded square is acceptable?

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Much less of a fan, but as long as they don't actually advocate doing it, yes.

That polygamy should be ok, as long as you are a mormon?

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Probably, but the LDS church formally rejected polygamy a while ago.

That consuming peyote is perfectly alright, as long as you are a member of a particular Native American tribe?

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I thought that was already the case.

Or do you happily draw the line of immunity around your faith only, because you should be allowed to break the law but members of other faiths shouldn't?

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No, I can happily say that I am not a hypocrite in this instance

Penumbra said:

Except that hell is untrue, but people who believe it didn't get the memo.

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Do go on... from whence does this memo come?

They believe in their religion, they have twisted immorality

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How does believing in hell as a fact of life show a twisted immorality?

Mister Emu said:

Believe it or don't, my childhood did not contain a fear of hell... when I thought about it, it was where they were going, not a potential place for me

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So your childhood didn't contain empathy for the hellbound?

9-10ths, Post #64

I for instance, never feared going to hell as a child, it was viewed with sadness as the final place of punishment for the unrepentant, of which I knew I was not one of.

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Mister Emu said:

Exactly, don't try to tell me how to raise my kids and I'll afford the same courtesy to you, no matter how wrong you are

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If you do so, I want you to stop teaching your kids that there exists a hell in which people are tortured forever!

If you do so, I want you to stop raising your kids rascist!

I don't believe it is a matter of courtesy. Allowing parents to raise their kids any way they feel like is a big mistake. Fortunately, there are some controls in place. Although certainly not enough. It is regretable that enforcing such laws is extremely hard, as such crimes usually go unnoticed. Gotta try though. The kind of world I want to live in does not include rascism and teaching eternal hell, and Im not apologetic at all for opposing such behaviour. I think I would be disappointed in myself if I didn't say so.

Ms Emu said:

relaxeus said:

It sounds to me that you are saying that teaching muslims to hate Americans is alright?

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Yes, it is.

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...wha...sigh...

Sir Emu said:

I thought that was already the case.

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It is, unfortunately.

Sir Emu said:

How does believing in hell as a fact of life show a twisted immorality?

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When a person believes that the most evil thing imaginable, that of torturing people for all eternity, is a good thing, then that shows that the person's sense of morality is twisted. To a massive extent. No sane, reasonable, thinking person could possibly believe something as completely ridiculous as that.

Penumbra said:

But what you present here is a straw man in most regards. The majority of people who believe in hell don't phrase it as such.

They believe in their religion, they have twisted immorality, and they pass it along. The ideas they are spreading are both incorrect and harmful, but they're typically not threats and shouldn't be treated as such.

They're not "in" on it in the sense that they are making threats that they themselves will carry out or contribute to. They're stating how they think things are (and most of them condone such absurdity).

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I disagree, for the reasons Ive mentioned. I don't really have any new points to add so I guess Ill leave it at that for now.

Penumbra said:

Banning teaching of hell is a huge infringement of free speech, since it's essentially making illegal the religious beliefs of a good chunk of the world. Most Muslims and a significant percentage of Christians would have their religion effectively banned. Parts of the Bible and Qur'an would have to be removed or re-written, which is a very poor and troubling solution.

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I don't see how. Slavery is illegal, but it hasn't been removed from the bible. As far as I know the law hasn't required bibles to be edited when the teachings in them become illegal. And the religions themselves certainly havn't been banned.

In the near future, a powerful figure named "89..." becomes president of the United States.
He is overwhelmingly elected with an unprecedented mandate to banish harmful teachings.
Government is remade into a powerful & all seeing authority for the greater good of citizens.
Children are no longer frightened by stories of devils, hell, lakes of fire, ghosts or others.
As time goes on, the people see still more societal woes which demand to be cured.
They see that atheists have no scripture imposing moral values upon them. Moreover, they
have no promise of purpose in life, meaning in their existence, or paradise in the afterlife.
Nay, they even deny afterlife, condemning their children to an empty & ephemeral existence.
Only happy government approved religious teachings become allowed, lest parents be imprisoned
& lose custody of their children. Everyone is happy....everyone who plays along.

If you do so, I want you to stop teaching your kids that there exists a hell in which people are tortured forever!

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That is fine, as long as you don't try to force me.

Allowing parents to raise their kids any way they feel like is a big mistake.

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Any way, yes... physically, verbally, and emotionally abusing them are wrong. And sometimes it does reach the level that we need to intervene.

But we should not go on a crusade. Vegetarians shouldn't be forced to feed their children meat, pacifists shouldn't be forced to spank their children, and people should not be enjoined from passing on their religions.

...wha...sigh...

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Legally, yes. I do not like it, but I do not want to begin the slide down the slippery slope either.

When a person believes that the most evil thing imaginable, that of torturing people for all eternity, is a good thing,

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Who said it was a good thing? It is a tragicthing. Even the Bible says God doesn't want it to happen. "He would that none should perish, but that everyone would come to repentance..."

Just to say...

There are incidences of child abuse where the perpetrators base their actions in religion. Arguments like these, where the word abuse is thrown around with abandon at ideas that are neutral at the core only damages the meaning of abuse.

Are there cases where the concept of hell has been used to abuse a child? Yes, I am almost sure of it. But just like how cases of physical abuse do not show all corporal punishment to be abuse, those cases do not show all teaching of "hell" to be so either.

I want to raise my kids myself and not let the government do it. That is what is being suggested, it seems.

You can't dictate what people say to others- not to children and not to adults (outside of true harassment, that is). It is as plain and simple as that. If you make teaching of hell illegal, then what will be next? You would find something compared to Pandora's box. I can see people saying "Now that they made the teaching of hell illegal, now I will see if can_________ (use your imagination with what). Is saying that if you drive too fast that paramedics may have to scrape you off the pavement bad, too? And if I did believe in an eternal hell (which I don't), and I preached it to others, that wouldn't mean that they were really going, anyway.

Mister Emu said:

That is fine, as long as you don't try to force me.

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As long as, like we both agree, it doesn't get out of hand.

Mister Emu said:

But we should not go on a crusade. Vegetarians shouldn't be forced to feed their children meat, pacifists shouldn't be forced to spank their children, and people should not be enjoined from passing on their religions.

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I think its more than worthwile to talk about individual cases.

Im not sure what ethical reasons can be made for forcing vegetarians to feed their children meat, although I highly doubt I would consider them convincing.

I don't like the idea of physically harming anyone, let alone forcing someone to hurt someone else. I'd be willing to look at the evidence about what the positive or negative effects of spanking are. I would defer to the judgement of those who are well studied on this one regarding whether or not to illegalize it, though. Its currently legal, as long as its done in an 'acceptable' way.

The third one obviously involves a broad range of issues that I think should be considered individually, and to which I would say, keep the good; tolerate but discourage the absurd; and make the harmful illegal. I think were going in the right direction. The issue of equality for homosexuals is one example of our continuing progress.

Mister Emu said:

Who said it was a good thing? It is a tragic thing. Even the Bible says God doesn't want it to happen. "He would that none should perish, but that everyone would come to repentance...

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...but he does it anyways... even though he could just as easily end their suffering, have mercy on them, give them as much time as they need to change, alter their genes that infleunce malevolent behavior,..."

It makes no sense. There is simply no reasonable explanation that could justify tormenting someone for all eternity. Think about it...

Really think about...

What good could possibly come from torturing someone forever? Its just endless pain. Thats all it is...

Its evil...

Please change your mind. :slap:

Please!!

I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ChristineES said:

I can see people saying "Now that they made the teaching of hell illegal, now I will see if can_________ (use your imagination with what).

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Lets go back in time a bit...

"Now that they made stoning adulterers illegal, whats next? Banning slavery?"

"Now that they made slavery illegal, whats next? Banning the teaching of creationism in public schools?"

"Now that they made teaching creationism illegal in public schools, whats next? Banning gay marriage?"

"Now that they made gay marriage illegal in many states, whats next? Banning it in all states?"

Step by step, were making progress.