Suicide

Ceridwen018 · Aug 3, 2004

What does your religion have to say about suicide? Is it accepted or recognized in any way? Do those who commit suicide still go to heaven, or do they automatically go to hell? Why?

What about those of us who don't believe in an afterlife. What do you think about suicide?

Allan · Aug 3, 2004

Ceridwen018 said:
What does your religion have to say about suicide? Is it accepted or recognized in any way? Do those who commit suicide still go to heaven, or do they automatically go to hell? Why?

What about those of us who don't believe in an afterlife. What do you think about suicide?

I don't believe humans go to heaven when they die but all sleep (in the grave) until a ressurection when everyone will be judged or give account of what has been done while in the flesh. I have heard the discussion and scriptures that indicate going to heaven it seems weak when looking at alternate verses. Ambiguity can be read in the Bible and could be translation as much as anything.

Rather than the term an "afterlife" the bible, if it is translated properly, (and I think it is) talks of a "hereafter" and indicates a new heaven and a new earth with all the former things passing away.

Isiah talks about lions eating herbs with lambs. This could be literal. I believe the earth and the elements in our bodies, brains and then mind and how they are acted on by environmental (electrical?) fields effects us to the level our behaviour could be said to be earth bound. The Bible seems to indicate this.

The energy will change then lifting everyones personal energy, with the earth giving up the dead. Therefore a new refined being will be "here" on the planet "after".

A suicide would have to give account just the same as anyone else including
a so called Christian who is actively using human nature. There will be a determination of who will take part in the new world. Then there is some writing of the second death. Hell is a place where everything that is dicarded is deposited.

There definitly is some fear attached to God's judgement and the wrath of God is directed at the unGodly. A little incentive to behave which includes Christians. Wrath could mean being subject to the distressfull hard normal life all humans experience to some extent or another.

A sanctified (a Saint) person who is fully believing and actively using Christ nature will not have to give account. They will not be judged. A dispute could ensue over who qualifies as a Saint. The Saints will judge.

I read the Bible a lot along with other faiths even sourcery and witchcraft, and observed life a lot before I went into a Christian Church and soon realized most of their beliefs don't come from knowledge or a spiritual source.

For most it is a comfortable social place and thinking rocks the boat. The pastor guides their thinking and most people in a church have different ideas when questioned.

There are 300 (I read some where) different mainstream beliefs and divisions most of them do get on but some are completely ridiculed and spurned.

Green Gaia · Aug 3, 2004

Ceridwen018 said:
What does your religion have to say about suicide? Is it accepted or recognized in any way? Do those who commit suicide still go to heaven, or do they automatically go to hell? Why?

What about those of us who don't believe in an afterlife. What do you think about suicide?

From Choices in Dying, a UU pamphlet:

Suicide or Intentional Death
Intentionally hastening your own death is a serious decision. It should not be considered unless you have the most compelling and inescapable reasons to do so. In most instances, suicide is a tragic mistake, brought on by a moody miscalculation of the possibilities that lie ahead and the resources that might be available.
But sometimes intentional death can be a rational, thoughtful, and responsible thing to do when someone is terminally ill and has no medical options left. It can be a peaceful alternative for someone whose sense of dignity and self-respect have been stripped away by a prolonged disease.

Well, I don't believe UU has an official stance on suicide that is not assisted suicide for terminally ill people, other than that it is tragic and we should seek to help any individuals who are thinking about taking that step. People who take their own lives are people who are deeply troubled, either mentally, or with something they are dealing with in their life. UUs want to extend hope and comfort to all people, and that would certainly include suicidal people.

Being Universalists, we do not believe anyone goes to hell, because there is no such place. However, those of us UUs who do believe in some sort of afterlife (my opinion here) would say that a person who committs suicide in this life, will not have their problems erased by the next, they will simply have another chance to deal with them properly. Have you seen the movie "What Dreams May Come" ? I think that movie gets it mostly right, at least with the way I view the afterlife.

Irenicas · Aug 3, 2004

Maize said:
it is tragic and we should seek to help any individuals who are thinking about taking that step. People who take their own lives are people who are deeply troubled, either mentally, or with something they are dealing with in their life.

No offense Maize, but crap. I talk from personal experience here when I say that sometimes suicide is a sensible option. I attempted to kill myself two years ago, and though I am sad I was driven to it, I still believe it was the right thing to do. I was being tormented by people I knew because of my sexuality, faith, and physicality, and I owed people large amounts of money (after a particular business venture had been demolished). I attempted suicide, because as a Buddhist, I believed that as long as I attemtped to die happy, then good karma would mature for my next life. I took over 50 paracetemal tablets, and drunk a quart of whiskey (and I never drink). I collapsed and was rushed to hospital, where the doctors fought to save me. I have only one memory of that time, and that was of my friend Lizzie looking down at me, telling me that she loved me. I decided that I wasn't going to do this anymore. And I fought back.

I have been fighting back ever since.

Green Gaia · Aug 3, 2004

I'm sorry you went through that Irenicas and I'm glad you fought back, but I'm not sure what you're objecting to in my post?

Lightkeeper · Aug 3, 2004

I am also sorry Irenicas, that you had these problems and am happy you are O.K. now. I couldn't see what you were rejecting in Maize's post. She made a lot of sense to me.

Nga_Believe · Aug 3, 2004

Maize, I agree that "What Dreams May Come" does have some good stuff to say about suicide and the afterlife. I think that Cuba gets it when he says that suicides don't go to heaven because they don't know their dead. Catholics believe that God gives you heaven and salvation and you have the choice to reject it or embrace it. You cant accept heaven if you're alive, in turn suicides can't accept heaven because they don't know their dead.

Irenicas, I do have to give you credit to say that sometimes i think that people do want to die. In psychology, the whole break down of the psyche (id ego and superego) in some circles describes man, as part of their id (instincts and drives), as having both a life drive and a death drive. Somewhere in our psyche we all want to die, thats why some of us think about it so much. That's where we get the idea of vertigo: when you're standing on a cliff you don't fear that you'll fall, but rather that you'll jump, because somewhere in your psyche, you want to.

Ceridwen018 · Aug 3, 2004

Nga_Believe,

That is very interesting. I can actually relate to the feeling of wanting to jump--not that I'm suicidal, but you kinda get these thoughts like 'It would be so easy, just step off' and that crap. Its interesting to hear that those feelings have been documented and observed like that.

Irenicas · Aug 3, 2004

Sorry to cause offense Maize, I was little off at that point. It touches a nerve, you know? What I meant was that because it made me fight back, because it made me stand up for myself it was in fact a positive thing to have happened. Therefore, I meant that sometimes it is the right thing to do.

Green Gaia · Aug 3, 2004

No offensive taken, Irenicas.

I just didn't understand what you were saying, thanks for clarifying.

Lightkeeper · Aug 3, 2004

I wonder if the something inside wanting to die, is the knowing we will die and we are dealing with it or practicing. Maybe we fear death less if we think about it and actually mentally practice it.

Green Gaia · Aug 3, 2004

Lightkeeper said:
Maybe we fear death less if we think about it and actually mentally practice it.

I'll probably get this totally wrong, but I'll give it a shot anyway.... I read something in one of my Buddhist books about how Buddhists train themselves for death. I don't remember the meditation exactly, and it had to do with insurance of going to a higher level of existence (or something like that, I'm sure I'm getting this totally wrong). Does this sound familiar to anyone? I know this is a bit off topic, but if anyone knows what I'm talking about could you start another thread about it? Or I could get up and go look it up for myself...

IceFire · Aug 3, 2004

Maize said:
other than that it is tragic and we should seek to help any individuals who are thinking about taking that step. People who take their own lives are people who are deeply troubled, either mentally, or with something they are dealing with in their life.

Actually the second time I attempted, it was out of sheer apathy. I stopped caring so I saw no point in living. I didn't believe in an "afterlife" so I wasn't afraid of going to hell or what not.

Bastet · Aug 14, 2004

IceFire said:
Actually the second time I attempted, it was out of sheer apathy. I stopped caring so I saw no point in living. I didn't believe in an "afterlife" so I wasn't afraid of going to hell or what not.

That describes perfectly the feelings I had when I was deliberately walking in front of moving vehicles. It wasn't that I was actively trying to commit suicide, but I just didn't care about living anymore...so I stopped looking when I crossed the street. It wasn't until one was literally inches from hitting me (most stopped fairly quickly and a safe distance away), that I really realised what it would mean if it, and all those other cars, hadn't stopped.
As I have said in a similar thread, I think suicide is a selfish act (no matter how the person may try to justify it at the time), and it's a waste. I think that some people have to hit bottom before they can realise that and fight back, and Irenicas, I think that's what happened with you. I don't think it was a positive act, but it had a positive outcome, so I am happy about that.

Ardhanariswar · Aug 15, 2004

eek. ya, i think suicide is selfish too. it affects soo many people. but in the end, we can all learn a lesson about how terrible the mind is, how we need to get psychological help or else. ya, i had the feeling of not wanting to live anymore. i think everyone has it sooner of later, one of those teen angst feelins. once i finally realized that people's lives are worser than mine, i became gratefull i had so many opportunities in life. all i needed was effort.

Bastet · Aug 15, 2004

I understand your point, but there's a little bit of difference between feeling teen angst, and being clinically depressed, which I was for 7 years.

Ardhanariswar · Aug 15, 2004

ya. one of my friends was a manic depressive. NOT FUN.

Mercellus · Aug 23, 2004

Suicide is a very sad topic. I have had thoughts of committing suicide when I was younger. And I think that, atleast in my case, it was selfishness. I wasn't getting what I wanted emotionally, even physically and so I felt like I was worthless. It's sad, really, because when I started to put others ahead of me, and worry about them, I found that my problems were insignigicant compared to what they were going through and that my life was actually really good. Other's were truly suffering. Now, I really don't know what happens to someone after they commit suicide. The Lord knows the circumstances of their life in its entirety, and He will make a just judgement on the matter. I personally feel like someone who has suicidal thoughts should do all s/he can to fight them. Yes, there are some with physical problems, chemical embalances, that cause them to do those things. That is a different situation.

I know that the Lord is mindful of us and our the circumstances in our life. He does strengthen us. Often times, we don't realize it, but He is there.

Here is a cool poem. It is called 'The Touch of the Master's Hand'

'Twas battered and scarred and the auctioner thought it was scarcly worth his while,
to waste his time on the old violin, but he held it up with a smile.

What am I bid good friends, he cried Who'll start the bidding for me?
One dollar, only one & who'll make it two?
Two dollars once and three.
Three dollars once and three dollars twice and going and going,
but no

From the back of the room a grey-haired man came forth and picked up the bow
And wiping the dust from the old violin & tightening the loose strings, played a melody pure and sweet as caroling angels sing.

The music ceased & the auctioner with a voice that was quiet and low said
What am I bid for the old violin as he held it up with the bow.
One thousand dollars, and who'll make it two?
Two thousand dollars and three
Three thousand once, three thousand twice and going and going and gone said he.

Three people cheered, but some of them cried. What changed its worth?
Swift came the reply: 'Twas the touch of the master's hand.

And many a man with life out of tune, and battered and scarred with sin,
Is auctioned off to the thoughtless crowd, much like this old violin.

A mess of pottage, a glass of wine, a game and he travels on.
He's going once, he's going twice, and going and almost gone.

But the Master comes, and the thoughtless crowd never can quite understand the worth of the soul and the change that is wrought by The Touch of the Master's Hand.

- Mary Brooks Welch

DrCash7 · May 27, 2005

Bastet said:
As I have said in a similar thread, I think suicide is a selfish act (no matter how the person may try to justify it at the time), and it's a waste.

I beg to differ (and don't take this the wrong way) but there are things that we simple don't understand. Now, what if Adolf Hitler had committed suicide? Wouls that be a selfish act or a selfless one? Now you can only see what I'm saying if you look at it this way: What if a person knows, deep down inside that they are lost and not just for themselves, but for everyone/thing that they come into contact with? What if Hitler knew that he would eventually take the lives of many but decided to kill himself instead? That would not be a selfish act of suicide. What if your average Joe kept looking lustfully at women on the streets and he could feel it inside of him that he was unhappy with his marriage, was beginning to hate all women in general, but before it got out of hand he took his own life instead of endangering the lives of others? We all look at suicide in the basic and generic scenario: The person doesn't feel life is worth living, or they run into problems with life (money, loved ones, the job), or they just want an "easy" way out. But these are just the "mainstream" issues that people know about. There are some very different screnarioes involving suicide even besides terminal ill situations. Let's face it, we are all going to die and just like "natural death," sometimes it will be sad. What's worse, a person dying from intentional Carbon monoxide poisoning, or a relative fighting everyday with an illness that causes them to sufer 25 hours out of the day?

jewscout · May 27, 2005

DrCash7 said:
What if a person knows, deep down inside that they are lost and not just for themselves, but for everyone/thing that they come into contact with?

can they not make the decision to seek help? If you sincerely want help then you can find it...

What if Hitler knew that he would eventually take the lives of many but decided to kill himself instead?

if he knew before hand what would happen then he could make the choice TO NOT DO IT! For those who believe in it, it is known as Free will

That would not be a selfish act of suicide

that's extremely debateable

What if your average Joe kept looking lustfully at women on the streets and he could feel it inside of him that he was unhappy with his marriage, was beginning to hate all women in general, but before it got out of hand he took his own life instead of endangering the lives of others?

if he was unhappy he could choose to divorce his wife and persue happiness elsewhere
there's a revolutionary idea!

We all look at suicide in the basic and generic scenario: The person doesn't feel life is worth living, or they run into problems with life (money, loved ones, the job), or they just want an "easy" way out. But these are just the "mainstream" issues that people know about.

i fail to see how any of the scenes you have just described couldn't be defined as "finding the easy way out"
instead of meeting their problems and overcoming them they commit suicide

What's worse, a person dying from intentional Carbon monoxide poisoning, or a relative fighting everyday with an illness that causes them to sufer 25 hours out of the day?

ok now you've gone from suicide to euthenasia which, in my mind, are 2 different things and nothing you have described above even resembles the conlcuding sentence's situation

if the scenes w/ Hitler and the "average joe" allow for them to choose suicide as an option then they can CHOOSE to do something else aside from the 2 options you have listed

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