Is the biblical flood story copied from the Gilgamesh Epic?

The similarities do not show a perfect oral tradition evolving one story to the other. Because the fact is, if the Epic of Gilgamesh did evolve to the Hebrew flood story, it was greatly changed, and was changed into at least two different versions that the Hebrews knew of. There is no perfect fit here.

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actually there is, it was changed for the belief in one god instead of pagan gods

No, we don't know that the Hebrew version is a complete fabrication. You certainly haven't shown it.

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I personaly dont need to prove it as we know there was no worldwide global flood, we know noah didnt live 800+ years, we know he did not have 2 of every animal.

it was fabricated,,, as it is %99 fiction. the %1 that is real is that at one point in time there was a flood.

And the proof is that other cultures have the same stories

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really, I'm betting no other story matchs noahs story as close as the sumerian version.

Only if you ignore the fact that the Hebrew culture was also connected to the Mesopotamian plains.

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only if YOU ignore the statement below

the Epic of Atrahasis which is also very similar to the Genesis flood myth. Six of these Ancient Near East flood myths contain numerous distinctive story elements that are very similar to the Genesis flood myth and indicate a literary affinity or dependency on a common body of legends about the flood hero Ziusudra (Noah) and based on the Euphrates River flood of 2900 BC.

There are hundreds of clues here and facts and ancient text all in the proper place and time....

we have almost nothing about nazareth and you stretch that into reality to fit the story, but here with a mountain of real evidence dated and written in cudiform you claim im stretching. I dont get it.

this one is slam dunk that hebrews took the sumerian story.

outhouse said:

Analysis of Genesis, Sumerian, and Babylonian flood stories, Noah's Ark, Ararat, etc.

For Old Testament scholars
The Noah's Ark book reviewed here does not claim historicity for Noah or the ark story, but the book does claim that some of the story elements in the Ancient Near East flood were based on an actual river flood. ........ Zuisudra was the Sumerian Noah. . In the Noah's Ark book, the original legend is reconstructed by piecing together fragments from the various surviving editions of the flood story, like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. This reconstruction is governed by the requirement that each story element in the legend be physically possible, technologically practical, consistent with archaeological facts, and plausible for 2900 BC. Some of the impossible story elements were mistranslations or misunderstandings, and these are corrected before including them in the reconstructed legend.
Additional details in the reconstructed legend about Ziusudra (Noah) can be found in the Noah's Ark book.


this is just one of hundreds of accounts by historians

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May I ask who is this great "historian" who wrote the above?
With different calendars drifting about, which one did he use? How did he arrive that 2900 B.C.E. date? How much of it is speculation? How accurate was his method of dating and why do you believe him?

HISTORICAL DATING UNCERTAIN
"The Science of Historical Dating"
"Anyone approaching the study of ancient history for the first time must be impressed by the positive way modern historians date events which took place thousands of years ago. In the course of further study this wonder will, if anything, increase. For as we examine the sources of ancient history we see how scanty, inaccurate, or downright false, the records were even at the time they were first written. And poor as they originally were, they are poorer still as they have come down to us: half destroyed by the tooth of time or by the carelessness and rough usage of men.

"As a matter of fact, the more we pursue our studies, the less are we impressed by the dates which initially filled us with respect. We begin to recognize the framework of chronological history for what it is—a purely hypothetical structure, and one which threatens to come apart at every joint. Crooked and tottering, it gives us a picture of a strangely arbitrary history, while at the same time our instinct tells us that the ancient civilizations must have had some sort of reasonable and organic growth. When we reach this point in our studies we begin to be doubtful of every single date!

"To give an example of the untrustworthiness of chronology: investigators toiling for a century have had to shift the date for the unification of Egypt by King Menes, who established the first Egyptian dynasty, from 5867 B.C. to 2900 B.C. And even this latter date, which is considered the real beginning of Egyptian history, has not yet been determined with complete certainty. .　.　.
"But as we go even deeper into the subject, our respect for the achievements of historical detective work returns. We learn that the scholars have been careful to distinguish between ‘assured’ and ‘assumed’ dates. And we discover that the chronological framework of ancient history rests upon at least a few firm points. Certain key dates, around which other dates are mustered, can be determined almost without error. They are ‘assured.’"
(The Secret of the Hittites, by C. W. Ceram)

So much for the accuracy of your "historians."

outhouse said:

We also know the noah version is a complete fabrication, I think you would have to show me proof that mans imagination will imagine the same exact thing before one could put credibility of any kind the early hebrews created this fable on there own.

you would also have to show me of a epic flood in history that took place in Mesopotamia in which noahs story originates,,,, guess what its not there! there is only the major flood in 2900BC

the fact the noak flood is from Mesopotamian plain's gives a very clear path of proof the flood story was taken from sumerians

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The flood was only incidental to The Epic of Gilgamesh.
What was the religious significance of this Babylonian story?
What was the story all about?

I don't think you have a clue!

Now you can go Google it up.

outhouse said:

really, I'm betting no other story matchs noahs story as close as the sumerian version.

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That's the one you want to believe.
From ancient Babylon we get the Berossus account that mentions a flood.
How does it match up with Gilgamesh and Genesis?

And the Lolo account from ancient China. How does it compare?

Then there's the Egyptian account from their "Book of The Dead."
How close to Gilgamesh?

You reading of history is obviously scanty. Grab a snipet here and there off the Internet.

Your writing smacks of a total lack of research.

Don't bet - you will lose - badly.

esmith said:

Is the biblical flood story adopted from the Babylonian epic Gilgamesh? I believe that it is and would like to put forward why I think that it is.

1. As we know, Israel in its infancy was a lesser society that those around it. Greater societies influence lesser societies. Why would a Babylonia author copy a lesser society’s story?
2. Floods were a common occurrence in Mesopotamia not in Canaan where the Jewish tribes were located.
3. The ark is said to have landed on Mt Ararat which is in the far northern part of Mesopotamia (Modern eastern Turkey near the board of Iran).
4. The Gilgamesh Epic, written in Acadian, was the literary classic of its time and was translated into many different languages. A fragment was found in Megiddo (located near now present Haifa) dated to around 1400BCE (about the time of Abraham).
5. Abraham came from the northern part of Mesopotamia and might have brought the story south with his family.
6. The biblical story follows the Gilgamesh Epic almost word for word,in the details, except in the addition of morality element (why the flood to destroy mankind) and the covenant element with God (rainbow in sky). Definite Jewish theological beliefs.
7. At the end of Chapter 8 when Noah offers a sacrifice to God it tells us that God “smelled” the sweet savor of the sacrifice. This is the only place in the bible that has reference to God smelling a sacrifice. This is showing God as an anthropomorphic being. This is something found in polytheistic worlds when they write about their gods. This is what we find at the end of the Gilgamesh Epic. This was left in because it really doesn’t violate any old Israel theology but just interesting that this is the only place we find it.

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I wouldn't say it was copied from that specific source, or exclusively from there. Other nations also had flood accounts, should we also say they copied theirs from Babylon? I suffice to say the Israelites were just as capable of myth making as the average ancient civilization.

wilsoncole said:

The flood was only incidental to The Epic of Gilgamesh.
What was the religious significance of this Babylonian story?
What was the story all about?

I don't think you have a clue!

Now you can go Google it up.

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creationist like you who do not view historians or scientist as accurate are not worth a debate

you have been shown evidence and proof and you can only argue with no merit or credibity.

have a nice day

wilsoncole said:

That's the one you want to believe.
From ancient Babylon we get the Berossus account that mentions a flood.
How does it match up with Gilgamesh and Genesis?

And the Lolo account from ancient China. How does it compare?

Then there's the Egyptian account from their "Book of The Dead."
How close to Gilgamesh?

You reading of history is obviously scanty. Grab a snipet here and there off the Internet.

Your writing smacks of a total lack of research.

Don't bet - you will lose - badly.

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there are hundreds of charts that show comparisons of all floods, go find them yourself.

if you want to use a 3000 year old book for a science and history book in modern times go for it.

I have a question for anyone who takes the Biblical flood story literally

1) How did he get all the animals of the world to the Middle East and then back afterward?

2) How did he fit all the species, 7 pairs of clean, and 1 pair of unclean on a 3 story ark where the stories weren't much different in size then a small ball field?

3) How did he provide for and clean up after all those animals?

parallels between flood myths

Parallels Between Flood Myths
Distinctive story elements and phrases that are common to three or more of the six Ancient
Near East flood myths indicate a common origin. Parallel quotations make it obvious that
these six flood myths did not originate independently:

"Side-wall... pay attention" Ziusudra iv,155
"Wall, listen to me." Atrahasis III,i,20
"Wall, pay attention" Gilgamesh XI,22

"Destroy your house, spurn property, save life" Atrahasis III,i,22
"Tear down house, abandon property, save life" Gilgamesh XI,24-26

"the decision that mankind is to be destroyed" Ziusudra iv,157-158
"The gods commanded total destruction" Atrahasis II,viii,34
"The great gods decided to make a deluge" Gilgamesh XI,14
"God...decided to make an end of all flesh" Genesis 6:13

"Enki...over the capitals the storm will sweep" Ziusudra iv,156
"He [Enki] told him of the coming of the flood" Atrahasis III,i,37
"God said to Noah...I will bring a flood" Genesis 6:13,17
"Kronos...said...mankind would be destroyed by a flood" Berossus

"...the huge boat" Ziusudra v,207
"Build a ship" Atrahasis III,i,22
"Build a ship" Gilgamesh XI,24
"Make yourself an ark" Genesis 6:14
"build a boat" Berossus

"who protected the seed of mankind" Ziusudra vi,259
"Bring into the ship the seed of life of everything" Gilgamesh XI,27
"to keep their seed alive" Genesis 7:3 (KJV)

"Like the apsu you shall roof it" Atrahasis III,i,29
"Like the apsu you shall roof it" Gilgamesh XI,31
"Make a roof for the ark" Genesis 6:16

"coming of the flood on the seventh night" Atrahasis,III,i,37
"after seven days the waters of the flood came" Genesis 7:10

"...and addressed the elders" Atrahasis III,i,41
"I answer the city assembly and the elders" Gilgamesh XI,35

"This is what you shall say to them..." Gilgamesh XI,38
"If asked where he was sailing he was to reply..." Berossus

"I cannot live in [your city]" Atrahasis III,i,47
"I cannot live in your city" Gilgamesh XI,40

"An abundance of birds, a profusion of fishes" Atrahasis III,i,35
"[an abundance of] birds, the rarest fish" Gilgamesh XI,44

"pitch I poured into the inside" Gilgamesh XI,66
"cover it inside and out with pitch" Genesis 6:14
"some people scrape pitch off the boat" Berossus

"your family, your relatives" Atrahasis DT,42(w),8
"he sent his family on board" Atrahasis III,ii,42
"into the ship all my family and relatives" Gilgamesh XI,84
"Go into the ark, you and all your household" Genesis 7:1
"he sent his wife and children and friends on board" Berossus

"animals which emerge from the earth" Ziusudra vi,253
"all the wild creatures of the steppe" Atrahasis DT,42(w),9
"The cattle of the field, the beast of the plain" Gilgamesh XI,85
"clean animals and of animals that are not clean" Genesis 7:8
"and put both birds and animals on board" Berossus

"Enter the boat and close the boat's door" Atrahasis DT,42(w),6
"Pitch was brought for him to close his door" Atrahasis III,ii,51
"I entered the ship and closed the door" Gilgamesh XI,93
"And they that entered...and the Lord shut him in" Genesis 7:16

"Ninurta went forth making the dikes [overflow]" Atrahasis U rev,14
"Ninurta went forth making the dikes overflow" Gilgamesh XI,102

"One person could [not] see another" Atrahasis III,iii,13
"One person could not see another" Gilgamesh XI,111

"the storm had swept...for seven days and seven nights" Ziusudra 203
"For seven days and seven nights came the storm" Atrahasis III,iv,24
"Six days and seven nights the wind and storm flood" Gilgamesh XI,127
"rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights" Genesis 7:12

"consigned the peoples to destruction" Atrahasis III,iii,54
"All mankind was turned to clay" Gilgamesh XI,133
"And all flesh died...and every man" Genesis 7:21

"Ziusudra made an opening in the large boat" Ziusudra vi,207
"I opened the window" Gilgamesh XI,135
"Noah opened the window of the ark" Genesis 8:6
"he pried open a portion of the boat" Berossus

"On Mount Nisir the boat grounded" Gilgamesh XI,140
"the ark came to rest upon the mountains" Genesis 8:4
"the boat had grounded upon a mountain" Berossus
"After Khsisuthros... landed ... a long mountain" Moses of Khoren.

"The dove went out and returned" Gilgamesh XI,147
"sent forth the dove and the dove came back to him" Genesis 8:10b-11
"let out the birds and they again returned to the ship" Berossus.

"When a seventh day arrived" Gilgamesh XI,145
"He waited another seven days" Genesis 8:10a.

"I sent forth a raven" Gilgamesh XI,152
"Noah... sent forth a raven" Genesis 8:7

"The king slaughtered...bulls and sheep" Ziusudra vi,211
"He offered [a sacrifice]" Atrahasis III,v,31
"And offered a sacrifice" Gilgamesh XI,155
"offered burnt offerings on the altar" Genesis 8:20
"built an altar and sacrificed to the gods" Berossus

"[The gods smelled] the savor" Atrahasis III,v,34
"The gods smelled the sweet savor" Gilgamesh XI,160
"And the Lord smelled the sweet savor..." Genesis 8:21

"the lapis around my neck" Atrahasis III,vi,2
"the lapis lazuli on my neck" Gilgamesh XI,164

"That I may remember it [every] day" Atrahasis III,vi,4
"I shall remember these days and never forget" Gilgamesh XI,165
"I shall remember my covenant...I may remember" Genesis 9:15-16

"How did man survive the destruction?" Atrahasis III,vi,10
"No man was to survive the destruction" Gilgamesh XI,173

"[on the criminal] impose your penalty" Atrahasis III,vi,25
"On the criminal impose his crimes" Gilgamesh XI,180
"Who sheds the blood of man, by man his blood be shed" Genesis 9:6

"he touched our foreheads to bless us" Gilgamesh XI,192
"And God blessed Noah" Genesis 9:1

"elevated him to eternal life, like a god" Ziusudra vi,257
"they shall be like gods to us" Gilgamesh XI,194

"I lived in the temple of Ea, my lord" Atrahasis RS 22.421,7
"go down to dwell with my lord Ea" Gilgamesh XI,42
"he had gone to dwell with the gods" Berossus.

outhouse said:

actually there is, it was changed for the belief in one god instead of pagan gods

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That doesn't really change anything. Because we can see the Jewish religion acknowledging various gods during its history. We can see Jews worshiping multiple gods during its history. The argument you're making doesn't work when we look at ancient Judaism.

fallingblood said:

That doesn't really change anything. Because we can see the Jewish religion acknowledging various gods during its history. We can see Jews worshiping multiple gods during its history. The argument you're making doesn't work when we look at ancient Judaism.

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OK so they were not always monotheistic?


what about the simularities in written words like i posted above. Is that not very close to claim chance?????

outhouse said:

I personaly dont need to prove it as we know there was no worldwide global flood, we know noah didnt live 800+ years, we know he did not have 2 of every animal.

it was fabricated,,, as it is %99 fiction. the %1 that is real is that at one point in time there was a flood.

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If it is 99% fabricated, then why should we assume it was taken from another culture? Especially one that had a flood story that can be traced back to an actual flood. It doesn't really make sense.

Plus, we are talking about an ancient story here. We can't just rule it out because it has some myth in it. By taking that stance, we could rule that Augustus was not real. We know that people are not born by women having intercourse with gods.

I'm not saying the flood is real. However, we can just say it is fabricated and leave it at that. Discussing it, we should try to figure out what is at the basis of it. Most likely, there was a flood that was at least major to a point. Over time, exaggeration was included, and we find a flood myth.

We know that other cultures had various stories, that the evolved in similar manners. We also have reason to believe that they are based on actual local floods. To make a special case for the Hebrew flood is special pleading.

outhouse said:

There are hundreds of clues here and facts and ancient text all in the proper place and time....

we have almost nothing about nazareth and you stretch that into reality to fit the story, but here with a mountain of real evidence dated and written in cudiform you claim im stretching. I dont get it.

this one is slam dunk that hebrews took the sumerian story.

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I accept Nazareth because we have archeological evidence showing that it existed. Other than that, I don't say much about it accept what can be known during that time. Primarily that it was a peasant village that had a small population of Jews.

Now, we don't have a mountain of evidence here. I've explained why the similarities that have been listed by you and esmith are not very convincing similarities. They were vague, and when actually checked, were only similarities when the details were left out.

More so, we have similar stories all over the world that evolved on similar lines. Since we can see that other, unconnected cultures, also have similar stories, we can not simply assume that in this one case, the Hebrews borrowed the story.

Because of that, some better information needs to be presented in order to show that the Hebrews did in fact borrow the story. I'm not saying it is impossible; I'm saying the information that has been presented so far does not show a reasonable reason to believe there was some borrowing.

outhouse said:

OK so they were not always monotheistic?

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Not from what we can tell. The Bible even tells us that there was Jews who worshipped various other gods. Even after they started focusing worship on God, they stilled acknowledged that there were other gods.

what about the simularities in written words like i posted above. Is that not very close to claim chance?????

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A lot of those phrases seem to be vaguely similar. Others seem like logical things that would be stated. For instance, the dove went out and returned. That is quite logical. Or the phrases about building a roof for the ark, or covering it with pitch. They are quite logical to be placed into such a story.

We can find various gods saying the same things in many different cultures. We can find similar stories in various cultures, which use similar phrasings. To start claiming that they all borrow from each other would be a little radical.

fallingblood said:

Not from what we can tell. The Bible even tells us that there was Jews who worshipped various other gods.

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I've heard that "Elohim" "Yahweh" and "Adonai" etc were all originally separate gods and later they became fused into one. In a similar way "Allah" comes from Al-Illah which was the name of an Arabian moon god and the 99 other names of God were actually names of other pagan Arab gods that were fused into one.

bare with me ,, im learning lol

Because of that, some better information needs to be presented in order to show that the Hebrews did in fact borrow the story. I'm not saying it is impossible; I'm saying the information that has been presented so far does not show a reasonable reason to believe there was some borrowing.

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there are many charts out there that show worldwide flood belief's and it shows all aspects and how the other floods fit in with genesis.

gilgamesh is close but the older sumerian story is even closer plus berossus.

none of the worldwide storys come close like the above comparison i posted. not even in the same league

We can find various gods saying the same things in many different cultures. We can find similar stories in various cultures, which use similar phrasings. To start claiming that they all borrow from each other would be a little radical.

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in that context alone i would agree

But
add the simularities in storys
add the time which fits perfect
add the place, well thats an exact match
add the fact the the people had the means to hear through oral tradition these flood storys. And the fact pagan worship was everywhere at that time and the sumerians had a nice long run in a advanced pagan civilization.

I would state there is no way they did not know about the sumerian version. the fact they retold the story states the did. a little circular reasoning but its obvious and not special pleading.

if anything it would be special pleading to think they did not know the story givin the pagan surroundings and history length of the sumerians