Who killed all those babies?

openyourmind said:

It's because you are not challenging thier faith. You are challenging god. God is put before us and does no wrong and only loves. You have read the bible and speak of crimes and blame god. When in reality it is man that has done wrong. If you challenge them and ask them how they follow a religion that has killed innocent people in the name of the lord, you may get a different reaction. I know there will still be those that believe it is justified. Not sure how you can kill for blasphemy or with craft or the christian crusades......sry got distracted. It is hard to find faith when you look in to a religion that has used the word to do harm!

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No, when I'm talking to a Christian, I'm challenging their theological concepts of what they believe God to be; I'm not challenging God. Christians put forth the Gospel as the divinely inspired word of God, and it is THAT I am challenging.

Now, when the Gospels say that God sent his son in a certain place and time, and as a consequence babies are slaughtered, then I feel compelled to question that. The "Word of God" describes God as all-knowing and all-seeing, so God knew those babies would be killed. Jesus' coming was foretold by the old-time Jewish prophets, which can only mean that God too knew of that coming event, right? Further, the Bible speaks of many Godly things to come in the future, and since the Bible is allegedly inspired by God, God clearly knows the future, if we had any doubt about God's future-seeing abilities.

No, I can't put my faith in a God that could act so ineptly, and kill a bunch of cute babies for no good reason.

"God came into the world to "save" us, but he had to kill a bunch of babies to do so; and I find that rather contradictory for an all-knowing, all-seeing God, who loves humanity so much he is willing to kill himself on a cross."

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Indeed, God killed his own *child* on the cross. And if God is OK with killing his own child, then it's not surprising that he has little compunction about killing other people's children.

WanderingSoul said:

I'm only looking at God's apparent immoral behavior within the Christian context. It was not my intention in this thread to wonder who I would blame in the absence of Christianity.

God came into the world to "save" us, but he had to kill a bunch of babies to do so; and I find that rather contradictory for an all-knowing, all-seeing God, who loves humanity so much he is willing to kill himself on a cross.

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I know. and most of it you have really lots of reasons... but what if ... ? Try to pretend that i am with you that believes there is no God... so who are we going to Blame ?

KeithH said:

Indeed, God killed his own *child* on the cross. And if God is OK with killing his own child, then it's not surprising that he has little compunction about killing other people's children.

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LOL. Yeah, you have a good point there. If he'd kill his own son, he's probably not going to care too much about other peoples kids either.:no:

I'm not sure I can trust a God like that. Scary.

diosangpastol said:

I know. and most of it you have really lots of reasons... but what if ... ? Try to pretend that i am with you that believes there is no God... so who are we going to Blame ?

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Who are we to blame?

I blame the Gospel writers for fabricating the event to strengthen the fiction of Jesus' divine mission. That whole episode involving the star, the magi, the harrowing escape was for dramatic purposes, lending credence to the supernatural life that Jesus is alleged to have lived. Remember this from Mathew:

“In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied, “for this is what the prophet has written:
6 “‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
who will shepherd my people Israel.

Christ's birth was foretold long before by a prophet of God, along with the good news that he would "Shepard my people Israel."

After Herod found out about Christ's escape he killed all those babies. This too was foretold by the prophets:

17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
18 “A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.”

A prophet of God was to have foretold this massacre which can only mean that God also would have known of this massacre. To suggest otherwise is absurd.

So, in the absence of God, the claims about God's involvement with the Baby genocide is a fiction, probably for propaganda purposes.

That's who I blame: The Gospel writers who made the false claims about God.

WanderingSoul said:

No, when I'm talking to a Christian, I'm challenging their theological concepts of what they believe God to be; I'm not challenging God. Christians put forth the Gospel as the divinely inspired word of God, and it is THAT I am challenging.

Now, when the Gospels say that God sent his son in a certain place and time, and as a consequence babies are slaughtered, then I feel compelled to question that. The "Word of God" describes God as all-knowing and all-seeing, so God knew those babies would be killed. Jesus' coming was foretold by the old-time Jewish prophets, which can only mean that God too knew of that coming event, right? Further, the Bible speaks of many Godly things to come in the future, and since the Bible is allegedly inspired by God, God clearly knows the future, if we had any doubt about God's future-seeing abilities.

No, I can't put my faith in a God that could act so ineptly, and kill a bunch of cute babies for no good reason.

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I question the belief god can see the future. All knowing of all things that can be known, yes. But, the future can not be known until man decides what he will do.

openyourmind said:

I question the belief god can see the future. All knowing of all things that can be known, yes. But, the future can not be known until man decides what he will do.

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I don't know of the extent of the true God's fortune-telling ability. I DO know what the Bible says about God and his ability to know the future. As I said, Christ's coming was foretold by the prophets of God. Are you telling me that the prophets knew better what God was going to do, than God himself?

There are tons of verses that speak of God's actions in the future tense. If the bible is truly the divinely inspired word of God, then it is relating God's truth, known to God.

There's no way around it, God knew those babies wre going to die because his precious "savior" was too important to be born a humble baby, like all the other babies in history.

Unless you are willing to concede that Christianity is a sham? Are you?

WanderingSoul said:

LOL:yes:

Why is it, that those of us who value, and strive for, rational thinking are made out to be the bad guys in the religious debate; as if reasonable thought were a crime, or something. Many Christians I talk to act like I'm trying to steal their Jesus, or something, when I dare to point out the inconsistencies in their religion. They want to lead me to the light of God with their dangerous fable. I want to lead them to God with the light of reason. How many souls in history have suffered and died for this thing called Christianity? Too many to count. I'll quickly add, I'm no great thinker with this thing; but, good lord, in light of what I hear sometimes, I feel like a genius with a duty to help.

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It amazes me how fast they shut there minds to reality and logic. You could point out earlier written works thousands of years before the bible and the first thing they do is try and rationalize how there god made that possible when you can clearly see it was a one sumerian pagan god and you can see how the hebrews put a slight twist on the original flavor to meet there needs.

rational thinking are made out to be the bad guys in the religious debate

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I have caught allot of heat for that

BigRed said:

Don't worry about those babies.....the story is fiction.

Matthew 2:18
A VOICE WAS HEARD IN RAMAH,
WEEPING AND GREAT MOURNING,
RACHEL WEEPING FOR HER CHILDREN;
AND SHE REFUSED TO BE COMFORTED,
BECAUSE THEY WERE NO MORE."

First..Ramah is about 10 miles from Bethlehem where Jesus was living.
Second....Leah was the mother of the Jews, not Rachel.
Third if you look back in Jeremiah where the Bible quote originated you see that the children are alive. They were just captive.


BigRed

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There were four women responsible for the creation of the Jewish nation. Leah was just one of his wives. Rachel was another. Bilhah and Zilpah were maidservants who also bore children for Jacob.
The reason Rachel is mentioned is because, to Jacob, she was the most important. Leah knew she was not Jacob's love and resented Rachel for this fact. Rachel is also the mother of Joseph and Benjamin.

Here is what I've learned from the bible, it's full of lies. Let's be realistic for a minute, let's think logically. Genesis was written 2000 years ago by a "prophet of god" correct? The book starts out with an in accuracy. The creation of the moon and stars is out of place. Are you going to tell me that god said it wrong? What he forgot? oops, my bad. The Mayan even knew about the solar system. So either god was wrong or some guy lied, you chose.
Want to talk about Jesus son of god, let's it'll be fun. Your going to tell me that your all loving god made a plan to sacrafic " his son" at the cost of thousands of innocent babies. He couldn't just send an angel as he did before? I've thought about this plan, it is mans move. "Sacrific" thousands to offer a savior of one? For him to raise again 3 days later, sounds like a great conspirecy. To create a new religon for those closest to him to run. Then create fear in the hearts of men to keep them in line. What happen to love and copassion forgiveness and such. Then anyone that went against it was immediately killed. These contradictions alone tell me that the person pulling the strings didn't know that much about human resolve doesn't sound much like a god at all more like man with his selfish greed. I believe in god and devote my life to him but reading a book that cause so many to lose faith or to cause spite in there heart, is not a bible of god and his glory. If you chose to believe that's on you. Is a book you have to defend with no real answers. So my belief is when you read the bible and curse god for the words and actions of men that is something I will always stand up to defend.

WanderingSoul said:

Who are we to blame?

I blame the Gospel writers for fabricating the event to strengthen the fiction of Jesus' divine mission. That whole episode involving the star, the magi, the harrowing escape was for dramatic purposes, lending credence to the supernatural life that Jesus is alleged to have lived. Remember this from Mathew:

“In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied, “for this is what the prophet has written:
6 “‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
who will shepherd my people Israel.

Christ's birth was foretold long before by a prophet of God, along with the good news that he would "Shepard my people Israel."

After Herod found out about Christ's escape he killed all those babies. This too was foretold by the prophets:

17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
18 “A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.”

A prophet of God was to have foretold this massacre which can only mean that God also would have known of this massacre. To suggest otherwise is absurd.

So, in the absence of God, the claims about God's involvement with the Baby genocide is a fiction, probably for propaganda purposes.

That's who I blame: The Gospel writers who made the false claims about God.

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What if there was no sciptures also... ?

Heneni said:

The killing of hebrew kids during the time of Herod was not the only time the Isreali kiddies were under threat.

In the book of Exodus Pharoah tried to kill hebrew baby boys by trying to solicit hebrew midwives:

Exodus 1:15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live.

When the hebrew women did not comply Pharoah turned to his own people and said this:

Exodus 1:22 Then Pharaoh gave this order to all his people: "Every boy that is born you must throw into the Nile, but let every girl live."

Pharoah like Herod had their own personal agenda when they tried to or succeeded in killing babies.

God had an agenda too. His was righteous theirs were not.

I know that is hard for you to swallow

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I think the point of the OP is that the children were under threat directly from God as a result of his mishandling of the birth of his son. I'm not actually sure this event happened, it is not mentioned anywhere else and Herod the Great is reasonably well bio-ed including his many atrocities and you would have thought this one would have got a mention if true. Not that it matters, of course, Christians believe it to be true and are ok with it. I find it odd that you would say that God's agenda was righteous - there is a lot of baby killing at the hand of God in the bible...could you explain to me about his righteousness in all this slaughter?

We are constantly overpopulating, breeding like rabbits which is why Nature (or God) sends plagues of all descriptions. Often famine, disease, natural and unnatural disaster but man gets more and more clever at combatting this. Now we are losing our fertility and facing war and famine because we cannot control our poulations from exploding. War for food and fuel perhaps. What would any sensible God do? It will hit the old sometimes, and the very young who are indeed innocent and able to return and try again later or go to baby heaven. We in turn cull every living creature imaginable from whale and tiger to local rat, unwanted dog and cat. If you have a better idea say. Most of these deaths come fast and are most painful for those left behind. But famine, which is avoidable if we all work together, is man made sometimes as is war. These reduce the numbers taken out by Nature (the creator God, Neter in Ancient Egyptian). If we want to all live longer we need to reduce our fertility otherwise we will breed like rabbits for hundreds of years and swarm like flies on anything that grows. The enlightened way is usually celibate. So it is really us killing our dear babies. When God gets involved it is not necessarily Nature. Any 'God' who wants animals and humans sacrificed to it is a demon that can use the energy in a parasitic way to take on a material form for a while. One of the fallen ones probably. We cant tell the difference between God telling us something, imagining or dreaming that God told us something, a drug induced vision, a clairvoyant vision, someone lying about having a vision or much else quite honestly. So when a 'voice' really does speak to us, instead of seeing doctor for a schizophrenia check, we call this God or Goddess kali or something. The fallen angels like a scarifice so they can have sex with humans otherwise they are spirits and must inhabit someone else. This way they can have kids. So dont trust sacrifice religions as they have been hijacked. Nature hates that kind of sacrifice, but limiting our populations with compulsory vasectomies at 18 might be a good way to get on better. Fairly reversible and not affecting our fertility. Then no babies or children or even older people would have to die and Nature could be saved. IE No chance.

What happens when earth goes through it's natural cycle and we have a second human extinction? Where is your salvation then?

WanderingSoul said:

(Note: This new thread has been moved from Christian DIR. I'm new in here and did not know I could not debate in that area. Sorry to those who were kind enough to respond.)

I am confused about something concerning the Christ story, and maybe you can help.

Why did all those babies have to die by Herod's hand after Christ was born?

This has always bothered me. Couldn't God have just been born like any other child without causing the slaughter of a bunch of innocents? Christ's birth was foreordained by God, if Christinity is true; so clearly God knew Christ's birth would result in that massacre, right? If we have any doubt about God's knowledge of Christ's harrowing escape from death during infancy, we need only read this in Mathew:

13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”

"Angel of the Lord," makes it perfectly clear to me that God knew full well what was going on there in Judea.

Further, there exists in the "Word of God" passages that speak of God's Omniscience:

1John, 3:19-20
Job 37:16
Psalms 147:5
Proverbs 15:3
Mathew 10:29

To offer just a few.

Herod did the killing, but with God's foreknowledge. Now, millions of babies are born every year without causing a slaughter, so why could God not have done the same? Does God not care about babies? Why do Christians rarely speak of these babies and their pained mothers who suffered for the sake of Christ's birth?

Most importantly: How can I have faith in the idea that the Christian God can offer me salvation for all eternity, when that same God couldn't even do what billions of mothers have done naturally? and be born without causing the slaughter of a bunch of babies. Is the Christian God really as inept as He seems, or am I just missing something?

Thanks

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because someone have to read this chapter

CLEMENT OF ROME, First Epistle

CHAPTER 25 -- THE PHOENIX AN EMBLEM OF OUR RESURRECTION.

Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.

Jesus had to go to Egypt to complete the prophecy on term auther openion.

take in consideration that Matthew is the only one who mentioned that story, and i don't beliebve it was truly happend.

please read the following verses carefully and remember that instead of pheonix we have a "star" which fly arround the baby Jesus.

WanderingSoul said:

Tell me, Sandy, what is YOUR perspective of God, based on your knowledge of the Bible? Do you believe God's perspective to be that of a fickle, tyrannical, murdering, bloodthirsty God that did not possess the intelligence & wisdom to know how to be born into the world without also causing a baby genocide? If so, then you and I are in agreement.

I have to ask, do you have no compunction in your faith in such a God? Really, I'm asking.

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That's your perspective and limited to only your perspective.

sandy whitelinger said:

That's your perspective and limited to only your perspective.

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It's my perspective based on scriptural evidence; evidence that is available to all and any who wish to verify the truth of the claim.

You aren't going to make me look up all those dirty deeds by that crusty, OT God of vindictive hate and destruction, are you?

WanderingSoul said:

It's my perspective based on scriptural evidence; evidence that is available to all and any who wish to verify the truth of the claim.

You aren't going to make me look up all those dirty deeds by that crusty, OT God of vindictive hate and destruction, are you?

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No, I suggest that you read the Bible to gain God's perpective.

mohammed_beiruti said:

because someone have to read this chapter

CLEMENT OF ROME, First Epistle

CHAPTER 25 -- THE PHOENIX AN EMBLEM OF OUR RESURRECTION.

Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.

Jesus had to go to Egypt to complete the prophecy on term auther openion.

take in consideration that Matthew is the only one who mentioned that story, and i don't beliebve it was truly happend.

please read the following verses carefully and remember that instead of pheonix we have a "star" which fly arround the baby Jesus.

Matthew 2:7-10
2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.​

2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.​

2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.​

2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.​

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Honestly, I got nothing from that.

All you have provided here is a timeline of events. Is that a defense for murder?

My point is, if God knew that those babies would be slaughtered as a result of Christ's birth, then God is morally responsible for their deaths. And, of course, God DID know, because God is all-knowing, all-seeing, and His will in Christ was foretold by the prophets, according to Christian theology. Not only up to Christ's time was God's will foretold, but what has yet to occur in the future at Christ's second coming. (Gosh, I can't wait)

And in regard to that whole bird story you tacked on...let me just say this: If I murdered your mother, and offered as part of my defense that story, do you think I'd be any closer to being acquitted?

The answer is no. So why should it be used in any defense of a murdering God?

I can't trust the Christian God of the bible, because that God is vindictive, murderous, and unfaithful.

Thanks for your time.

I think the point of the Herod story is that the man represents 'evil' and this negative force does not want any light shining on its dark activities. This is why John the Baptist loses his head too. The responsibility for those deaths would not be the Creator's unless the whole of Creation is the problem. 'For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction'. That is the law of science and is reflected in this tale. In the same way some believe the Holocaust was an attempt to wipe out a generation to prevent the second coming. Actually Jacob's vision of 'Shiloh' coming explains that Judah will run things until that time so it is unlikely that the Shiloh Messiah is actually from the tribe of Judah, and they said he is coming for Jews and everyone else too. You can bet if he sticks his head up now it will come off again. Nothing has changed and no one wants to give up control to a religous figure anyway. Beware of Gods who want sacrifices of living things, especially their children. The sacrifice required is our desire to 'do evil in the sight of the Lord'. Even David and Solomon fell out with God over this. Is there a totally good person in the world? Doubtful. But if thyere is then there will be a complete opposite somewhere as this is dictated by the law of averages, means etc. Two extremes and a massive silent majority sitting on the fence. The way forward really is the middle way - cut out the extremes on both sides, the poverty and obscene wealth, the good and the bad, and there will be nowhere for a demon to hide, nor a saint.