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WARNING : ANTI-LDS PRETENDING TO BE LDS - Is there ANYTHING to be done about deceivers?

dallas1125

Covert Operative
What if one is just stating an opinion. I did not feel like any of my posts in this particular area were "debate-y," yet I know others would feel like they were. Even though I no longer believe, I am very curious and try to understand why people do. It is a curiosity and sometimes perplexment of mine why anyone would want to believe in it.
I believe the LDS church has many doctrines that are great! I really do like a lot about the culture. It just seems that in some areas, it had issues and those issues bothered me more than others. Ironically, I have no problem when I learn about the darker side to stories. I think there are many reasons why people believe and involve themselves with the church. Its not hard to see why people can believe in it. Family values, a great sense of community, and a culture that fits for people. With all of our human flaws, what the church brings is great!
 

dallas1125

Covert Operative
I learned yesterday In my Sociology of Religion class that the Social Exchange Theory (deciding to adhere to a system based on balancing its perceived minimized costs and maximized benefits) is the most prolific theory today in the Social Sciences for explaining why people are religious. Dallas touched very well this theory in the last three sentences of his post. I think that many LDS are LDS because of this theory. Despite all the human flaws and characteristics present within the LDS Church, and all religions, for that matter, people still see the benefits of belonging (family values, community, culture, etc.) to it as better than not belonging because of its shortcomings.
Well, thats not what I meant. Although I think that is true in cases also.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I have been thinking about a lot that has been said here. I have told you guys more about my personal feelings than anyone else. Why? I dont know what got into me. As for now, Ill try to stay out of here to help you guys feel more comfortable.
You know, I really don't think that's necessary. I was re-thinking my comment from last night -- this one:

"Technically, you'd be allowed. I'm not sure I'm really comfortable with that, but as long as you identify as LDS, nobody's going to stop you from posting here. Do your posts 'comply with the tenets and spirit of the DIR'? You know the answer to that question as well as I do."

The LDS DIR is not supposed to be a debate thread. It's supposed to be a place of learning for non-LDS. That's it's sole purpose. If someone asks for an explanation of what we believe about the Godhead, what we mean by the three degrees of glory, or why we perform proxy baptisms for the dead, you could answer that as well as any other Latter-day Saint. There is no reason why your answer wouldn't be as valid as anybody else's. After all, in a few months, you're going to be an official representative of the Church, 24/7, you you might as well get some practice. The only thing about the DIR is that it's not supposed to be a place where you could say, "Well, here's what the Church teaches about baptism for the dead. Personally, I have issues with this doctrine." See what I mean?
 
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Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What if one is just stating an opinion. I did not feel like any of my posts in this particular area were "debate-y," yet I know others would feel like they were. Even though I no longer believe, I am very curious and try to understand why people do. It is a curiosity and sometimes perplexment of mine why anyone would want to believe in it.

Per forum rules, opinions contrary to the religion's positions are not allowed in a DIR forum. It's not what you are posting that's an issue, it's where you're posting. I'd love to hear your opinions and discuss LDS issues with you, but if we're in a the LDS DIR forum then we're not allowed to be contrarian. In short, post away - just know where you are when doing so.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
***Mod Post***

Once again: this is the LDS DIR. IF YOU DO NOT CURRENTLY CONSIDER YOURSELF A MEMBER OF THE MORMON CHURCH, PLEASE POST IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE GUIDELINES OUTLINED IN RULE 10:

-----------RULE 10. Discuss Individual Religions Forums
The DIR forums are for the express use for discussion by that specific group. They are not to be used for debate by anyone. People of other groups or faiths may post respectful questions to increase their understanding. Questions of a rhetorical or argumentative nature or that counter the beliefs of that DIR are not permitted. Only posts that comply with the tenets or spirit of that DIR are permitted. DIR areas are not to be used as cover to bash others outside the faith. The DIR forums are strictly moderated and posts are subject to editing or removal.----------

If you are a member of the LDS religion, please don't respond to people posting violations in your DIR.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
***Mod Post***



If you are a member of the LDS religion, please don't respond to people posting violations in your DIR.

I almost missed this request, Quagmire. Since I did, I bet a few other people will, too.
 

DavyCrocket2003

Well-Known Member
Well, I put a question mark there cause im not sure where I stand.

Either way, not going on my mission is not an option. My dad never went and im the oldest child. He keeps telling me how excited he is. He actually is in the hospital right now on what could be his death bed and he told me how proud he was that im going on my mission. He told me why he never went and then said how much he regretted it and was excited for me to go. My mom would definetley not be able to handle it. She has major depression problems and if she found out that I no longer believe, I am afraid she might get worse. There are other reasons, but these are the major ones.

Honestly, I just dont know where I stand.

Hey Dallas. I haven't been following this whole thread... but I think this is really important!

You can not let others opinion of you control what you do. I am LDS of course, and yeah, I believe in it. But I'm telling you, if you have doubts or questions, IT's OKAY. There is NOTHING WRONG with that. How can we learn, if we do not ask questions and think critically about what we are being taught? It is an important thing to question the things we are taught. It's not a sign of a lack of faith. The only way to obtain truth is to seek after it. The question you need to ask yourself is, do you care about knowing what is truth? If yes, then how much do you care? Are you brave enough to ask questions? Are you willing to accept truth, wherever it may come from? If you really want to know if God exists, and what his nature is, and come to know him, you have to be willing to look and ask questions. I believe that God would be proud of you for being intellectually honest about having doubts, rather than pretending to believe. And if God doesn't exist, why pretend to believe in him?

An honest, sincere search for light and truth is ALWAYS a good thing. I have several friends who have left the church but are sincerely trying to do the right thing. I admire them. That takes a great deal of courage and personal integrity. I guarantee they are learning more about life and existence than their counterparts who are still pretending to believe. T.S. Eliot wrote:

"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."

For some of us, that is what it takes. Don't worry man! Just remember, when we do good, we feel good. When we do bad, we feel bad. This is your life we are talking about. No one can live it for you. No one can tell you what to believe or not believe. Just look at yourself and decide what you believe. Always live consistent with those beliefs. And always be seeking to improve and learn. Do this and you will never go wrong. Good luck!
 

idea

Question Everything
Clear, you can deny that the temple included an oath of vengence all you want. Doesn't change the fact that it happened.

Blood Atonement - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism
"Several early Church leaders, most notably Brigham Young, taught that in a complete theocracy the Lord could require the voluntary shedding of a murderer's blood-presumably by capital punishment-as part of the process of Atonement for such grievous sin. This was referred to as "blood Atonement." Since such a theocracy has not been operative in modern times, the practical effect of the idea was its use as a rhetorical device to heighten the awareness of Latter-day Saints of the seriousness of murder and other major sins. This view is not a doctrine of the Church and has never been practiced by the Church at any time."

more info:
FAIR Topical Guide: Blood Atonement

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
My $0.02 - no one is perfect, the LDS church, as all church groups, is a one room school house with everyone from all different backgrounds/maturity levels/activity levels/understanding levels within it... It does not good to get upset at a fellow member who has not yet gained a testimony of a particular doctrinal facet... we all have areas that we do not understand completely, or areas that we misunderstand. There are many concepts which have not been fully revealed to everyone - for these subjects everyone can have their own opinions, and that is fine to have an opinion... there are many doctrines from the early church which - when partially understood - lead to contention... (imagine if you only partially understood the account of Abraham sacrificing his son? a father asked to kill his own son - horrific!!! a church with that in it isn't a church I want to belong to!!! that is unless, you actually know the entire reason of it... much from the early church is like this, if you don't understand 100% of it, it will sound scary, and you might be offended at it.)

for those who need it, http://www.fairlds.org/ is a wonderful resource explaining many of the early practices of the church - but by far the best resource is prayer / guidance by the Spirit. The Spirit is real, and really can help you understand some of the deeper doctrines.
 
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madhatter85

Transhumanist
Hey Dallas. I haven't been following this whole thread... but I think this is really important!

You can not let others opinion of you control what you do. I am LDS of course, and yeah, I believe in it. But I'm telling you, if you have doubts or questions, IT's OKAY. There is NOTHING WRONG with that. How can we learn, if we do not ask questions and think critically about what we are being taught? It is an important thing to question the things we are taught. It's not a sign of a lack of faith. The only way to obtain truth is to seek after it. The question you need to ask yourself is, do you care about knowing what is truth? If yes, then how much do you care? Are you brave enough to ask questions? Are you willing to accept truth, wherever it may come from? If you really want to know if God exists, and what his nature is, and come to know him, you have to be willing to look and ask questions. I believe that God would be proud of you for being intellectually honest about having doubts, rather than pretending to believe. And if God doesn't exist, why pretend to believe in him?

An honest, sincere search for light and truth is ALWAYS a good thing. I have several friends who have left the church but are sincerely trying to do the right thing. I admire them. That takes a great deal of courage and personal integrity. I guarantee they are learning more about life and existence than their counterparts who are still pretending to believe. T.S. Eliot wrote:

"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."

For some of us, that is what it takes. Don't worry man! Just remember, when we do good, we feel good. When we do bad, we feel bad. This is your life we are talking about. No one can live it for you. No one can tell you what to believe or not believe. Just look at yourself and decide what you believe. Always live consistent with those beliefs. And always be seeking to improve and learn. Do this and you will never go wrong. Good luck!
+1

This is an awesome post
 

zomg

I aim to misbehave!
Blood Atonement - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism
"Several early Church leaders, most notably Brigham Young, taught that in a complete theocracy the Lord could require the voluntary shedding of a murderer's blood-presumably by capital punishment-as part of the process of Atonement for such grievous sin. This was referred to as "blood Atonement." Since such a theocracy has not been operative in modern times, the practical effect of the idea was its use as a rhetorical device to heighten the awareness of Latter-day Saints of the seriousness of murder and other major sins. This view is not a doctrine of the Church and has never been practiced by the Church at any time."

more info:
FAIR Topical Guide: Blood Atonement
Blood Atonement and the Oath of Vengence are not the same thing. Try again.
 

tomato1236

Ninja Master
I accept the apology. But you did bring up a point I never even thought of. I just figured I could just pretend to keep everyone happy. What I never actualy considered about going on my mission and not believing, is that I would be preaching truth I dont believe. I never thought of it that way. In a way, im hoping that going on a mission will restore my faith. You know the saying, "I only converted one person, myself." That statement might be cheesy but I always thought that could be the answer I want. Anyways, Katzpur, I respect you and I understand what you were saying. You understand and believe in the theology and I really am happy for you. I have more to say, but I am afraid that this is starting to get too personal for a public thread.

I'm coming into this a bit late and I hope I'm not being redundant, but I have something to say about this. It's true that a mission is good for your testimony. But why? Is it just being there that does it? Is it the suits?

What will convert you on your mission, and what will convert others you speak to is not your missionaryness. It's effort. No one will be converted who hasn't made the effort to read the book of mormon. There were times as a missionary when my testimony began to dwindle because I wasn't working. I sat in my apartment all day with my fat lazy companion and we just wasted our time. There were other times when I felt so close to God I could feel his gaze and it was when I was working very hard, making and keeping commitments to him and serving people I was trying to love.

And the biggest point I have to make here is that the same thing that will convert you as a hard-working, loving missionary is what will convert you before you become one--work. If this is something you really want, pray. Make a commitment to God in a sincere prayer that you are willing to do whatever he requires of you if he will teach you that it is all true. You will read the book of mormon. You will study it. You'll compare it to the bible. You'll pray for the spirit as you read. You'll serve a mission. If there are any sins to repent of you'll repent of them. Make this commitment and then go to work. Don't forget that service is a big part of a mission. It's all about the other people, and not about you. Include a commitment to do something for someone else every day, and then do it.

I don't know anything about how you live your life from day to day, but God respects covenants. When you make a commitment to God, asking for help in return, that's a covenant. Perhaps covenants can be your first topic of study. If you understand covenants better, making one will be more real to you. When you see results from your effort, and that God doesn't leave you alone, you'll be more motivated to do it all again.

Good luck man.

P.S. Missions aren't easy. And I'm not talking about blisters on your feet or nasty apartments.
 
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