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Should we Follow The Bible Only?

precept

Member
jewscout said:
The Talmud, from orthodox tradition, is believed to have been given at Sinai with the Torah and passed down Orally until the 2nd Century. However there exists 2 main Talmud versions, the Jerusalem and the Babylonian. It is a collection of commentaries from Torah scholars that has continued to grow. One of the most famous commentators is Rashi whose commentary you can find in most Torahs in use today.
The idea was that G-d gave us the instructions, like, get married, but the instructions on how it is to be carried out were given by these scholars who wrote the Talmud because G-d left no detailed instructions in the Torah.

Just think of it. Does it matter how the ceremony to be married is performed? Is it not that a man loves a woman who loves him in return; and who both pledge to each other to share their lives in love till they die. Does it therefore matter that they do it it in public with witnesses or without; as long as the All Seeing God is The Witness?

And who loves to be wronged? Not the one wronged! Meaning not anyone. Therefore if we were to all follow the ten commandments in Torah; we would not need any other instruction in civil or religious behaviour; making unnecessary any Talmudic instructions.

Torah is God communicating to humanity His desires for all of humanity; which if followed, would bring all of humanity into favor with God, and make unnecessary any and or all other instructions in how to behave in love and kindness to God and our fellow humans. It is this conforminty that was followed by Enoch, Seth, Abraham, Issac, Jacob and many others who had no written instructions neither as in Torah or in the Talmud. And so closely were these followers of God following His instructions, though never written, that one of them, Abraham, came to be known as God's friend.


precept
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
SOGFPP said:
Linus,

Up until know, I have enjoyed your posts..... but...... I find this last one to be a bit of the Christian arrogance that seems to turn non-Christians off so much.

How incredibly silly to assume that my knowledge of the Bible is somehow less than yours or that I have not yet studied Greek or Hebrew.... sheesh.
You misinterpret my post, SOGFPP. I never claimed to know more of the Bible than you, and I certainly never meant to imply it. I meant it as a warning to not only you but all christians. But your posts seemed to indicate that you would not do such things as investigate the meaning of the LORD's word. And again I don't mean to offend or riddicule, but you pray to better understand the teachings of the church? Pray that you (and I and anyone for that matter) better understand the will of The LORD before you hear what the catholic church has to say about it.
 

Dadball

Member
I have read the Bible as a historical book. This was before I became a Christian. Like most history books, there are place that can get boring, and Psalm went right over my head. I have since learned with God's help that he talks to me through these words. I find these words as relevant to today as they were when they were written. There is a spiritual discipline of meditating on the word, and I have found God speaking directly to me. I feel these words were written for me. This is my experience, it may not be yours. I would be happy to share more insight or examples if you wish to know more.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Linus said:
You misinterpret my post, SOGFPP. I never claimed to know more of the Bible than you, and I certainly never meant to imply it. I meant it as a warning to not only you but all christians. But your posts seemed to indicate that you would not do such things as investigate the meaning of the LORD's word. And again I don't mean to offend or riddicule, but you pray to better understand the teachings of the church? Pray that you (and I and anyone for that matter) better understand the will of The LORD before you hear what the catholic church has to say about it.
I was hoping that I got your post wrong... glad to hear it.

Just remember, those Catholic Bishops that decided on the Canon of Scripture, and the first and second century Christians were quite fluent in Greek and Hebrew.......

..... and they still were Catholic. Suprise suprise. ;)

Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ..... and ignorance of the Catholic Church is ignorance of scripture and history.

Always remember that I in no way judge you.... I am quite pleased that you have a faith in Jesus Christ, and I believe that is sufficient for your salvation without membership in the Catholic Church.... we're just two people chatting. ;)

As the Good Book says:
"The important thing is that in every way..... Christ is preached." Phil 1:18

Peace be with you,
Scott
 
Presuming that the bible was written by God; or presuming that God inspired humans as to his wishes by having His wishes put in words, we call the Bible; then either God desires different words[wishes] for each of humanity's different cultures or His words[wishes] are the same for each of humanity's different cultures. [If God deems it good for one human culture; why wouldn't He deem it good for another?] Is it right to wrong another member of whatever culture? Is it right to serve another god other than the God who rules over said culture, who wrote His instructions in a Bible? These questions make the God of the Bible Supreme in His being accepted by whichever culture who voluntarily follows His instructions as written in the bible.
You ask such good questions!

Whether or not GOD is all knowing etc... is not really the question at hand. The Bible is not an everchanging document - it is a snapshot of a belief system at a particular point in time. Everyone is entitled to change their minds, reframe their sentences and check their spelling from time to time - even God. This is not to imply that God is fallible it is to imply that right and truth is often contingent on time and place (as in sometime is it right to eat earthworms -like when your mother-in-law makes you a special soup with them in it - and sometimes it is not - pretty much all other times).

As to the discrepancies between what one religion's view of God wants v. anothers? I would like to believe that all religions reach out to God (and that there is probably only one God) - since all religions are worshipping different interpretations of the same God and for the purposes of this thread God wrote the Bible - by that thinking apparently God did want different things for different cultures or people.

As for the why God would want some people to believe that Jesus was his son and other's to believe otherwise and still others to be more interested in Mohammad than Moses is really beyond my thinking. At this point, I feel that I should disclose that I don't really think that God did write the Bible, inspire maybe (or not) -and that for that matter I don't think that God is very concerned with our day to day lives. While those are my current beliefs, I am interested in learning about what it is like to see things differently - which is pretty much why I am on this website.

If the bible, God's [wishes] words for humanity is followed deligently by any and or all of humanity's cultures; then the revising of His words[wishes] would be unnecessary for any and or all subsequent human cultures because the deligence of complicity would be the heritage of successive generations of these human cultures.
While I would love it if this worked, I simply cannot agree that there is no need to revise, amend or ignore any of the Bible. Once again, it is a snapshot. Think of all the stuff in the Bible that is questionable or offensive or just plain weird - especially if taken literally. Also, it seems to me that to embrace this idea is cutting oneself off from a lot of experiences and opportunities to learn about other cultures from a more equal place.

This all aside, the fact is all of humanities cultures don't follow diligently - in fact most fo them don't follow the Bible at all and look we've managed to last this long...If most of the world is not ascribing to the Biblical standard what does that mean for humanity?
 

precept

Member
Simon the Cat said:
- in fact most fo them don't follow the Bible at all and look we've managed to last this long...If most of the world is not ascribing to the Biblical standard what does that mean for humanity?
Simon the C......the common thread that runs through all of humanity's different cultures is the thread of "desire", for worshipping a higher being. Whereas this thread is taken for granted; one must wonder why would any sane human want to worship some resemblance of a wooden deity with such devotion and complete trust. The ancient Greeks worshipped Appolo and Diana, building magnificent edifices to their eternal memory. In fact much of the religious thought of our time was spawned by the folklore of mythical gods chasing each other across the heavens, as their earthly devotees concoct theories of how to please and understand the gods of their own creation.

But where did this desire originate? This all consuming desire to worship any deity of any stripe? Why do we have to so trust this deity that we must read His bible; or else?

For me it begins at the beginning. We humans all have the same common ancestry--unlike the lower animals that vary in form; from "no legs" and "or arms" to those with "multiple legs" and "arms"; animals who are unable to procreate except within their own individual species-- we humans unlike these lower animals can procreate with any member of the human species no matter his race or culture. And yet despite the fact of this variance, we humans are yet unalterably linked to both the animals "with and without legs or arms", by the "common DNA".
Even the inanimate trees, are by the same "common DNA" undeniably linked to all animals both higher and lower alike.

At this beginning is the Creator who not only said that He created us but that He created "Us" and "all things". "Us" He says that He created for His glory; and that He also created us to worship Him. This may account for the inate desire to worship, on the part of humanity no matter his culture. While the rest of nature he created for us humans to rule over.

Whether you believe this to be true or not; yet one is hard-pressed to explain how defenceless humans could control animals more powerful than the humans that control them, if God did not in fact make humans defacto rulers over lions and tigers, bears and rattlesnakes.

Given therefore that God implanted in us the desire to worship....and also given that He made for us a "Garden" with flowers, fruit trees, and animals of all sort to tend; then we must also accept that he would also have left us instructions as to how we must conduct ourselves with each other; as well as to how we ought to worship Him. This is the subject of the Genesis story; that is; if you believe that the common and same DNA found in all living things didn't come to be; purely by chance.

If then you accept the Genesis story; you are automatically resigned to also accept the Story of Abraham; and if you do, you are also accepting that God was dissatisfied with the majority of the humans that He had created in how they aportioned the worship desire He had implanted in them. Because of this dissatisfaction, He had previously anhilated a whole civilization by means of a flood, and now again registering His dissapointment in the surviving humans in their not worshipping Him, He had singled out Abraham as the only one who chose to worship Him among the thousands of humans living in and around where Abraham lived.

This fact alone proves that God had left instructions on how to worship Him or else Abraham would not have known how.

Whether Abraham knew or not; did not prevent God from again dictating to Moses and Abraham's descendants the "how to worship Him" commandments; making those who refuse, to pay heavily as the people who lived at the time of the flood.

Interpreting the script "how to worship Him" is the root cause of the perfusion of religions who all try to lay claim to being on the inside of the "knowing how to worship God".

But yet again; if they do not start at the beginning; they would not discover the "How to worship God" anymore than they were also unable to discover the common DNA that God used to make all living things....Or the simple fact of the craving desire to worship as created in them by God.

No Simon; this is not about Mohammed or any visionary, who has taken this "craving desire to worship" and made it into his "own image" complete with his own following-his own religion. This rather is about those who see their Creator God influencing them towards worshipping Him; totally and apart from those human visionaries who would seek to usurp God's perogatives, appropriating to themselves that desired by God. And because for these reasons of misappropriations God destroyed humans in the past; He will again; for these said reasons destroy humans in the present.



precept
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Linus said:
I would strongly encourage you to try and understand the teaching of the Bible and form you own opinions and interpretations before you delve into the teachings of the catholic church. Learn some Greek and Hebrew or at least get a dictionary. that way you can better understand the meanings behind the words before you start following someone's teachings.
If we were in this world and all these inventions ,innovations ,technological advancement, were going around us as they presently are and we had no, instructions ,directions or even understanding of how these devices worked, then how would we function
We need to be told what to do, how to do it ,when to do it ,regardless of much we refute it, there will always be someone who usurps authority over you, Go wants it to be him

God is much like a father or mother, your son or daughter needs instruction regardless of how certain you are they can do the right thing, they need constant instruction ,,my question is why do you discipline, and punish them when they are disobedient, if you did'nt they would be in danger of life's circumstances, why do you constantly teach and train them? to protect and help them function and learn how to survive this world
The bible is His instruction to us , we obey or disobey, consequences will come.

This is exactly what God's intention is thru the bible, his son and the cross, but man does not have to obey and follow. What will be the outcome of us his creation if they don't,
Linus ,I appreciate your desire to see those who do not presently read the bible, read and follow that they may understand and obey, but as the bible is clear that Jesus is the word and the word is only understood by revelation of the power of the Holy Spirit .

When a person recieves Christ as their personal savior they trust Him that He died and paid the penalty for our sin in which we committed against God by breaking his Law
Man is a fallen creature that needs to repent and turn to their creatorfor forgiveness who demands holiness and righteousness that can only come thru Jesus by confessing sin and forsake their ways ,when this happens . the Holy spirit enters a man and his nature changes and the refuting and skeptism etc , leave. I know I was on both sides of the fence


It is not by believing or disbelieving the bible that a man gets to heaven, but by a personal relationship with Jesus
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
roli said:
It is not by believing or disbelieving the bible that a man gets to heaven, but by a personal relationship with Jesus
How did you come to know this? I am guessing that it was without the Bible, so I am wondering which historical books you read to discover information that helped you develop a "personal relationship" with Jesus.

Thanks,
Scott
 

dharveymi

Member
I have been envolved in many forumns and eventually people loose interest in my line of reasoning. I must apologize for not reading the entire debate before posting, if this is not the appropriate place for this post please let me know.

Here is the problem: I figure that if you are a christian, what other source could a christian use other than the Bible to make decisions about what to believe or how to behave? Who would be qualified to interperet the text better than the authors of the texts?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
dharveymi said:
I have been envolved in many forumns and eventually people loose interest in my line of reasoning. I must apologize for not reading the entire debate before posting, if this is not the appropriate place for this post please let me know.

Here is the problem: I figure that if you are a christian, what other source could a christian use other than the Bible to make decisions about what to believe or how to behave?
Uh... well, just off the top of my head, I can think of one. :D
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
dharveymi said:
I have been envolved in many forumns and eventually people loose interest in my line of reasoning. I must apologize for not reading the entire debate before posting, if this is not the appropriate place for this post please let me know.

Here is the problem: I figure that if you are a christian, what other source could a christian use other than the Bible to make decisions about what to believe or how to behave? Who would be qualified to interperet the text better than the authors of the texts?
Why not use Prayer and meditation ?
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
Christians should follow only the (christian) Bible. I mean, it's OK to read other texts about God, but if something in another Chistianity based book contradicts something in the Bible, we should believe the Bible over the other book.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Christiangirl0909 said:
Christians should follow only the (christian) Bible. I mean, it's OK to read other texts about God, but if something in another Chistianity based book contradicts something in the Bible, we should believe the Bible over the other book.
I agree. But the Bible is actually silent on many issues. If another source were to touch on those issues, would it be contradicting the Bible?

To me, it wouldn't.
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
Katzpur said:
I agree. But the Bible is actually silent on many issues. If another source were to touch on those issues, would it be contradicting the Bible?

To me, it wouldn't.
Which issues would you say the bible does not cover?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
SnaleSpace said:
Which issues would you say the bible does not cover?
Oh, just off the top of my head...

1. What will be the fate of those genuinely good people who die without having ever had the opportunity to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ?

2. When does the human spirit come into existence?

3. What would have happened had Adam and Eve never eaten the forbidden fruit?

Most Christians believe they have answers to these questions and others, but they aren't finding these answers in the Bible. They are speculating and nothing more. For instance, most would answer the above questions as follows:

1. Option #1: They will burn in Hell throughout eternity. Option #2: God didn't really mean what He said in the Bible. Belief in Christ and baptism in His name aren't really necessary.

2. Somewhere in between conception and birth. There is no other possibility.

3. We'd all be living happily in the Garden of Eden -- all 100 billion or so of us.
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
Katzpur, in reply to your posts:

I wouldn't mind reading and thinking about books that touch on matters the Bible is silent on, but I'm not going to believe them. Where the Bible is silent, I am silent.

I mean, if someone just wrote a book about what would have happened if Adam & Eve had never eaten the forbidden fruit, wouldn't that be adding to the Bible? Not to say that the book is neccesarily wrong, but we can't be sure that it's right.

See where I'm going w/ this?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Before I say anything, let me say this: where the Bible is silent, we need to be silent too. Any attempts to tread where God hasn't gone, is pure speculaton. Put another way: even silence is inspired.

Katzpur said:
1. What will be the fate of those genuinely good people who die without having ever had the opportunity to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Ecclesiastes 7:20 = FOR THERE IS NOT A JUST MAN ON THE EARTH, THAT DOETH GOOD, AND SINNETH NOT.

Jeremiah 17:9 = THE HEART IS DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS, AND DESPERATELY WICKED: WHO CAN KNOW IT?

Romans 1:20 = FOR THE INVISIBLE THINGS OF HIM FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD ARE CLEARLY SEEN, BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD; SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.

Romans 3:10 = AS IT IS WRITTEN, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE.

Romans 3:23 = FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.

Romans 5:12 = WHEREFORE, AS BY ONE MAN SIN ENTERED INTO THE WORD, AND DEATH BY SIN; AND SO DEATH PASSED UPON ALL MEN, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED.

2. When does the human spirit come into existence?
I don't think the Bible is silent on that, but I'd rather not say until further investigation.

3. What would have happened had Adam and Eve never eaten the forbidden fruit?
We'll never know ... since it didn't happen. Our Bible is big enough, and not everyone reads it as it is. We don't need more info. Guess: someone else would have eventually eaten it.

Most Christians believe they have answers to these questions and others, but they aren't finding these answers in the Bible. They are speculating and nothing more.
You got that right; but just like the men of Jericho who insisted they were going to go out and find Elijah after he had been taken up to Heaven ... they aren't going to find anything.

May pastor told me there have been major splits in churches over what color eyes Jesus had.
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
Katzpur said:
Oh, just off the top of my head...

1. What will be the fate of those genuinely good people who die without having ever had the opportunity to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ?

2. When does the human spirit come into existence?

3. What would have happened had Adam and Eve never eaten the forbidden fruit?

Most Christians believe they have answers to these questions and others, but they aren't finding these answers in the Bible. They are speculating and nothing more. For instance, most would answer the above questions as follows:

1. Option #1: They will burn in Hell throughout eternity. Option #2: God didn't really mean what He said in the Bible. Belief in Christ and baptism in His name aren't really necessary.

2. Somewhere in between conception and birth. There is no other possibility.

3. We'd all be living happily in the Garden of Eden -- all 100 billion or so of us.
1. For me jesus said "noone comes to the father but through me" so I'm afraid I'm option 1 there

2. Don't know

3. We would never understand the difference between good and evil, therefore meaning we would all go to heaven. (knowing the difference between good and evil determines whether or not you can 'judged'.)

Katzpur said:
Oh, just off the top of my head...
OMG :eek: geek :)
 
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