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Open Thiesm

emptybe

Om Mani Padme Hum
"If God knew the future with infallible certainty, he cannot change it – in which case he cannot be omnipotent. If God can change the future, however, he cannot have infallible knowledge of it" George H. Smith

// Genesis 6:6-7 (KJV) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
// Exodus 13:17 (KJV) And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:
// Exodus 32:7-14 (RSV) And the LORD said to Moses, "Go down; for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves; they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them; they have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, `These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!'" And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people; now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them; but of you I will make a great nation." But Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, "O LORD, why does thy wrath burn hot against thy people, whom thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, `With evil intent did he bring them forth, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou didst swear by thine own self, and didst say to them, `I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it for ever.'" And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people.
// Exodus 33:4-6 (KJV) And when the people heard these evil tidings, they mourned: and no man did put on him his ornaments. For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people; I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee. And the children of Israel stripped themselves of their ornaments by the mount Horeb.
// Isaiah 5:4, 7 (KJV) What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
// Isaiah 38:1-5 At that time Hezekiah became very sick; he was almost dead. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to see him and told him, "This is what the Lord says: Make arrangements, because you are not going to live, but die." Hezekiah turned toward the wall and prayed to the Lord, "Lord, please remember that I have always obeyed you. I have given myself completely to you and have done what you said was right." Then Hezekiah cried loudly. Then the Lord spoke his word to Isaiah: "Go to Hezekiah and tell him: 'This is what the Lord, the God of your ancestor David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears. So I will add fifteen years to your life.


A God that can be influenced by his creation through prayers and actions.. A God that hasn't predestined anyone to Hell.. A God that is omniscient but does not know what is not there (future). What do you guys think? :shrug:
 
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1AOA1

Active Member
"If God knew the future with infallible certainty, he cannot change it – in which case he cannot be omnipotent. If God can change the future, however, he cannot have infallible knowledge of it" George H. Smith

// Genesis 6:6-7 (KJV) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
// Exodus 13:17 (KJV) And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:
// Exodus 32:7-14 (RSV) And the LORD said to Moses, "Go down; for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves; they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them; they have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, `These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!'" And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people; now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them; but of you I will make a great nation." But Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, "O LORD, why does thy wrath burn hot against thy people, whom thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, `With evil intent did he bring them forth, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou didst swear by thine own self, and didst say to them, `I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it for ever.'" And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people.
// Exodus 33:4-6 (KJV) And when the people heard these evil tidings, they mourned: and no man did put on him his ornaments. For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people; I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee. And the children of Israel stripped themselves of their ornaments by the mount Horeb.
// Isaiah 5:4, 7 (KJV) What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
// Isaiah 38:1-5 At that time Hezekiah became very sick; he was almost dead. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to see him and told him, "This is what the Lord says: Make arrangements, because you are not going to live, but die." Hezekiah turned toward the wall and prayed to the Lord, "Lord, please remember that I have always obeyed you. I have given myself completely to you and have done what you said was right." Then Hezekiah cried loudly. Then the Lord spoke his word to Isaiah: "Go to Hezekiah and tell him: 'This is what the Lord, the God of your ancestor David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears. So I will add fifteen years to your life.


A God that can be influenced by his creation through prayers and actions.. A God that hasn't predestined anyone to Hell.. A God that is omniscient but does not know what is not there (future). What do you guys think? :shrug:

How many definitions does omnipotence have? And omniscience?
 

emptybe

Om Mani Padme Hum
How many definitions does omnipotence have? And omniscience?

All-powerful and all-knowing... should be the only definitions. But all-knowing of what? I can't ask God to know about my non-existent bike can I? Of course not. And I shouldn't ask God to know about my non-existent future.
 

emptybe

Om Mani Padme Hum
But God knows the present and past so exhaustively that He has a pretty good idea of what's going to happen, but it's never 100%.
 

1AOA1

Active Member
All-powerful and all-knowing... should be the only definitions. But all-knowing of what? I can't ask God to know about my non-existent bike can I? Of course not. And I shouldn't ask God to know about my non-existent future.
But if I were to define a storegoer as 'someone who goes to the store', can i also use the definition 'someone who does not not go to the store'? Would you say that they are the same?
 

emptybe

Om Mani Padme Hum
But if I were to define a storegoer as 'someone who goes to the store', can i also use the definition 'someone who does not not go to the store'? Would you say that they are the same?

What's the point of the question exactly? I don't understand your logic here.
 

1AOA1

Active Member
What's the point of the question exactly? I don't understand your logic here.
:) To try to define using balance? So... would you say that the definitions of storegoer
-Someone who goes to the store
-Someone who does not not go to the store

are the same?
 

1AOA1

Active Member
Yea that would be a double negative :shrug:
Ok :). So if I define an omnipotent being as "one who can do all cans, is it also 'one who can't do a cannot(non-can)?

And if I define an omniscient being as 'one who knows all things', is it also 'one who does not know non-things'?
 

emptybe

Om Mani Padme Hum
Ok :). So if I define an omnipotent being as "one who can do all cans, is it also 'one who can't do a cannot(non-can)?

And if I define an omniscient being as 'one who knows all things', is it also 'one who does not know non-things'?

I believe the future is a non-thing, so one who does not know non-things is in agreement with your definition of omniscience. So we are in agreement.. wonderful..
 

1AOA1

Active Member
I believe the future is a non-thing, so one who does not know non-things is in agreement with your definition of omniscience. So we are in agreement.. wonderful..
If the future is a non-thing then yes, it belongs in that category.:) But it may be a tad more complicated than just present future and past. Then you have free will :rolleyes: sheesh. Free will + time will give you non-futures only from non-choices, in my humble opinion.
 

emptybe

Om Mani Padme Hum
If the future is a non-thing then yes, it belongs in that category.:) But it may be a tad more complicated than just present future and past. Then you have free will :rolleyes: sheesh. Free will + time will give you non-futures only from non-choices, in my humble opinion.

It seems to me Open Theism would be the only way to have God and Free Will at the same time.
 

tarasan

Well-Known Member
It seems to me Open Theism would be the only way to have God and Free Will at the same time.

well arminism also has it as does molonism

at least if you take the generally accepted definitions of omnipotence and omniscience they do.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Open theism still succumbs to the Problem of Evil.

That, and it's a cosmic joke to assert that our insignificant free will choices on Earth have any macroscopic impact whatsoever on the universe outside of our pale blue speck.
 
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