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A Pagans’ Interpretation of Satan

Dark_Waltz

Active Member
How are Christians that don't want to convert non christians viscious?
Its like when they went around enslaving people because they wouldn't convert then said "Oh this is for your own good" It is really quite laughable!
I know You have genuine concern for non christians because of this hell we are all going to but lets face it some people do not want to be "saved" and it is unacceptable to force them or preassure them.
As for the satan question-The God and Goddess have a darker side just like us
Just like in nature there is night and day and the weather mild and brutal
It is just one thing we accept and try to keep a balance with as best we can,
If there was a hell I would rather see a Christian murderer there than the average atheist....how terrible of me ;)
 

thorysus

Member
I understand what your saying as far as satan being the opposite of what they believe, so as long as there is one theres the other. And yes satan is the rebel angel and i understand the draw this may have. I still think you are making broad and general claims of christians that i just dont believe to be true. Yes some are like that, but not all. I have several christian friends as well as pagan and others. Our religion is no thing we judge eahother on. I find several christians open minded and help full. i even learn alot from them. I think the group you are refering to tend to be more of your right wingers and activist (at least in church). On the street the acerage joe or josette i fing really are not like that. Sometimes you get some that are skeptical, but with a little nonjudmental or adult conversation they undestand at least enough to realise i/we are not the horrible monsters portrayed. Thats the first step in global understanding! I enjoy religous debates if done in the correct manner. Theres alot of simulariety among all religions and it breeds tolerance and understanding. Isn;t that what its all about?
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
Just to put forward a view that has not yet been touched upon. The idea that 'God is One' brings up all manner of problems. Without wishing to be semantic how exactly are we defining the word 'One'?

Let us consider the writings of The Great Beast himself, come on Crowley had to pop up in this...In the book 'revealed' to him by Aiwass/Eihwaz the messenger of Harpocrates, it states...

"The Perfect and the Perfect are one Perfect and not two; nay, are none! Nothing is a secret key of this law. Sixty-one the Jews call it; I call it eight, eighty, four hundred & eighteen. But they have the half; unite by thine art so that all disappear. My prophet is a fool with his one, one, one; are not they the Ox and none by the Book?" Liber al vel Legis 1:45-48

Here Crowley is cleary drawing reference to the qabbalistic concept of Ain, Nothing, by gematria 61. But the veils around creation do not stop here as will be delineated. Truly one, aleph as the Ox if you will, is not The One of monotheism.

Now in truth the One is not one as we define it as say we may quantify one cup as opposed to two, in Arabic Wahid, rather Al - Wahid, having a meaning of The Unique, and in Al-Ikhlas he is 'Allah the one'. By the quabbalah, there are three veils that surround our universe. First one discovers a nothing, which becomes a limitless, and then an illuminating light which blinds, surely the light of the God is brighter than any physical light we have seen, may we bathe in the light of The God, The Absolute, and Infinite, and may it cleanse the shadows upon our souls. When one considers the mundane light of the sun at the centre of our stellar system, can we even seperate that into parts, can we divide it into three for instance? If we cannot then who dares to assign division or partners with The God in his realm? A Muslim brother has written a whole thread on the names/attributes of Allah so I will just post a link to his thread...

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=280555&highlight=Allah#post280555

the whole thread is interesting, but his dealing with Al-Wahid lends weight to my argument, and thus the link. As the Quran states...

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem​

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him."
Sura 112 Al Ikhlas (The Purity)​


Returning to the concept of Nothing, this has long been a paradox within mystic schools be they Qabbalah, Sufic, Zen, Taoist etc.

Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur are three qabbalistic veils that surround space, the first heaven if you will, creation. Its is then as if around our creation (i.e. that creation we live within.) there was a veil drawn covering the literal 'unseen'. When one considers that which lies beyond creation first one intellectually sees a void, Ain, nothing if you will. This then becomes limitless, a sea of possibility, one might even say a 'field' in physics speak. Then if one stares deep into the darkness one might 'see the light', Ain Soph Aur, the limitless light. Thus, 0, 00, 000. Now we come to a semantic paradox. An atheist says 'beyond the universe there is nothing, a believer on the other hand says 'beyond the universe is veiled from me...it appears to me as nothing. Let us consider things, a cup is a thing, we have created it for a purpose, we have named it, we control it, we may measure it's dimensions and its volume, moreover its characteristics we decide on its inception and subsequent creation, it is a thing because we can comprehend it.' The God on the other hand does not fall into this category, he is as will be and as he was, in his true reality beyond our perceptions. If there are 'more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of' then surely the supporting origin of creation, the supreme architect of our creation is beyond quantification, and thus is not a thing. So here then is the semantic, the atheist says 'nothing' while the believer says 'no thing', Ain Soph as it were.

Any student of the oral tradition will know that this paradox manifests in mystical thought of which there are two distinct schools. There is the school, atheist if you will that says the progression goes 0, 00, 000 whereupon the light breaks out in kether descending as a flaming sword down the tree to Malkuth. Then there is the position of the believer, that the progression goes 000, 00, 0, 1, where the light descends to a spark at kether, a big bang if you will, and the tree of life, the universe itself, comes into being as a plan of the supreme architect.

To return from whence I departed I will again quote Crowley...

"The sceptic will applaud our labours, for that the very catholicity of the symbols denies them any objective validity, since, in so many contradictions, something must be false; while the mystic will rejoice equally that the self-same catholicity allembracing proves that very validity, since after all something must be true. Fortunately we have learnt to combine these ideas, not in the mutual toleration of subcontraries, but in the affirmation of contraries, that transcending of the laws of intellect which is madness in the ordinary man, genius in the Overman who hath arrived to strike off more fetters from our understanding. The savage who cannot conceive of the number six, the orthodox mathematician who cannot conceive of the fourth dimension, the philosopher who cannot conceive of the Absolute."

Aleister Crowley, 777, Prolegomena Symbolica ad Systemam Sceptico-MystiCÆ viæ explicandæ fundamentum hieroglyphicum sanctissimorum.

Myself, I realise that there are things beyond my understanding, the absolute beyond creation certainly being one of them.

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem​
Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."​

Sura 18:109, Al Kahf - The Cave.​


In regard to Iblis, the adversary of God and subsequently man, he has limited power. His only power is to decieve us as to the true nature of Al Wahid, to place stumbling blocks before us. It is not God who makes belief and religious knowledge complicated, it is naught but that naughty Jinn jealous of the bounty bestowed upon the sons of Adam. The angels do not fall other than by a command of The God. Having been raised a Christian and having attended religious schools, I often think of what the teachings of Christ have become. I think of Saul on the road to Damascus, and the spreading of Jeheshuah's word to the Goyem. Unfortunately Paul, as he became, decided upon a syncretism with the beliefs of Rome, the rite of Sol Invinctus at the very least. Surely tho' he may have considered himself guided, I have no doubt that Iblis whispered into his heart and mind.​

Rant off.​
 

WeAreAllOne

Member
Maybe I'm missing the point here and this is just a bit off topic, great discussion by the way. The Christian God in his most basic form does:
A) give you his word, the Bible.
B) Expects you to follow it among other things.

Now Satan can:
A) Tempt you
B) decive you
C)Create other religions like Wicca and many many other depending on who you ask to confuse you and steal your soul.

My question is are Christians truly Monothestic, or Polythestic? because is sure seems to me that no matter how you try to slice it... they have two Gods.
 

tavthe

Abysmal Stargazer
Wouldn't that make them dualistic, Weareallone?

I was raised a Catholic, and with the idea that God is a loving god, and that Satan is the ultimate deceiver. Yet at the same time, ever since I first read about Tiamat in mythology books as an early teen, I found my goddess. I knew it long before I had come to understand anything regarding Paganism. Tiamat's identity as a serpent, and as a dragon reminded me of the stories about the vanquishing of Leviathan. I have read a lot of mythology over the years, and many places seem to possess a near-obsession with the vanquishing of serpentine characters by forces of bright booming effluescence.

Thoughts about the garden led me to reflect on the relationship between the serpent and Eve. I can't honestly convince myself that somehow childbirth was ever painless, or that women are the source of all evil. Engaging in research in women's studies has also revealed to me how deeply religion(the studies cover Western history so primarily focus on Christianity) has entrenched society against the appreciation of the free-woman.

I pondered over the curious associations between Tiamat and satan, and the archetypal symbols of wisdom seem almost too obvious to ignore. What wisdom could be such a bane to a woman's existence that she should be labelled as the villain for having accepted it, unless there was a force who was so desperate for power and control over humanity that it should seek to keep man (the universal, the human race) shackled in a tyranny of ignorance?

The longer I thought about it, the less that the old way of thinking - from my Christian upbringing - made sense. After all one of the primary fundamental issues between Christianity and paganism lie in the reality that we approach the same event through different eyes. Where one sees evil and deception, the other may see wisdom and freedom. It seems to me then, the problem is not the one who opens the gate, but the one still clutching at levers to seal the gate.

I had considered two alternative possibilities. The idea that perhaps, there is a Yahweh and a Satan and that they are two sides to the same coin, or that there is a Satan and a Yahweh, and one is an illuminator while the other is the demiurge. One of these instances may not necessarily rule out the other.
 
I don't believe in God or Satan, but if they did exist, I believe that God is evil and Satan is good. Probably sounds weird to some people, but think about it...God is the one that wants to be worshipped, God was the one who ordered people to be murdered, and doesn't accept those who are different, and didn't he trick a man into seeing if he would kill his own son in the name of God?

As far as I know, Satan never demanded to be worshipped, never claimed to be all mighty and the best. Satan represents freedom to make your own choices, to not follow the crowd and to be your own person.
 

dragondaughter

New Member
I'm not a deep thinker, and I have nothing profound to say but that's the first time I've heard it put that way, but I have to both agree and disagree. I personally don't believe in Satan. I believe its some militant religions' way to scare and brainwash children into "behaving".

IMHO I believe that all human beings have both dark and light sides. Depending on how your parents treat you as they're raising you has alot to do with it.

There was a family who lived across the street from me who claimed to be fundamentalist christians, yet they stole, used drugs, beat their kids and their children were mean little monsters. They bit, hit, kicked, stole, bullied my daughter terribly and excused it all as I was a witch and just didn't follow the bible so they justified their children's behavior and felt they had a right to do as they saw fit. They've since lost custody of their kids because of a public beating their father gave one of their sons.

I have nothing against most christians and Muslims but I'll tell you what The militant ones need to police their own behavior before telling we pagans, wiccans, buddhists, hindus etc. that we're bad people (Satan worshippers) because we worship differently than them.

Yet, I know a woman who calls herself a witch who "worships" Satan. She says he can be demanding and doesn't like it when she doesn't do her weekly worship. :no: I've never asked her if she worries about her soul, but apparently she doesn't. She also believes in Jesus Christ and celebrates X-mas. Her daughter and mine are both great kids.

Blessed be
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
The fundamental principle of paganism, is that there is no one true God; there is no one true way, one true path, one true name or one true religion.

That sounds like Satanism actually, it also sounds like Pantheism. Hmm...maybe there is a relation :D

Satan is the spirit adverse to such arrogance. The belief in Satan as the adversary of religious intolerance is not (real/true/pure) Satanism. This is simply my view.

What makes you think that?

And what makes you think that the role of adversary is necessarily a form of religious intolerance? ( of course this is assuming that you really think that, maybe you don't.)

Drill instructors don't break you down just to make you feel bad, they break you down to build you up stronger, it is safe to assume that this same principal applies elsewhere.

What are the consequences of this idea of One God and One Religion?

Who knows, man separates himself too much to come to this conclusion.

Look at the violence and hatred that springs from religions that think this way. Satan is the spirit that tries to free mankind from this kind of arrogance. Like Prometheus, Satan is a friend to man. Satan is the Adversary of arrogant, power hungry men who seek to dominate and enslave free spirits, to force all to recognize their image of god above all others.

I agree with you, I would even go as far as to say that Satan advocates arrogance as wells.

But like you said, Satanism provokes to paint your own image of a "God". Not necessarily concluding that God is a singular and defined entity and is given characteristics that condemn man to an eternal suffering in an everlasting hell!!!!!:beach:

The concept of the devil will exist so long as the concept of a one true god and a one true religion exists. So long as pagans are looked down on and belittled, so long as Christians and Muslims do their best to rule the world and to force all to bow before their image of God and so long as free spirits remain opposed to the arrogance of those who claim to have the only true path, Satan will be there, fighting beside free spirits in an eternal battle for spiritual freedom.

Ave Satanas!
 
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