Sin=natural

waitasec · Dec 28, 2010

Beta said:
friend ...we were talking from a religious view not from a material,physical,earthly, human perspective in which you can also have high hopes of achievements...they just won't get you eternal life in the end. But hey...maybe you are not aiming for that. It's just you being on a religious forum let me think you were :sorry1:

no worries,
from what i understand this is a religious debating forum. maybe i'm wrong, i don't know. :shrug:

however, i thought you were debating from a religious view and i was coming from an earthly human perspective.

bringing up eternal life is changing the subject which we can discuss in another thread.

Penumbra · Dec 28, 2010

Beta said:
Oh the potential for good is there if only man would learn to obey.
God told Adam and Eve to obey-they did not
In the OT God told man to obey-they did not
in the NT God sent us an example and we have oportunity to follow-but do not .Lk.46
Do YOU ? instead of complaining ? Heb.5v8,9.
Man is not as smart as he thinks yet reckons he is good.

It's a good thing people don't follow the morality of the Bible because the Bible has fairly terrible morality. The people that wrote it were not very moral people.

Ben Masada · Dec 28, 2010

Penumbra said:
Yes, it's natural for humans to make mistakes. People are born into this world with zero knowledge and have to work their way from there with varying degrees of help from parents, friends, communities, etc.

Quick-fix religious pills won't fix them, and forgiveness from above is a deception. Making mistakes is a good way to learn and grow. It's important to try to be conscious of one's actions so that one can reduce the number of mistakes one makes over time and becomes better and wiser.

What do you mean by "forgiveness from above is a deception?" How about forgiveness from below? Psychologically, when we get forgiven, we experience satisfaction. If from above is deception, is there satisfaction from below? Are you easy to forgive? If you are, is it something from above or from below?

Penumbra · Dec 28, 2010

Ben Masada said:
What do you mean by "forgiveness from above is a deception?" How about forgiveness from below? Psychologically, when we get forgiven, we experience satisfaction. If from above is deception, is there satisfaction from below? Are you easy to forgive? If you are, is it something from above or from below?

What I mean is, religions that rely on forgiveness from an external source like a deity are typically shallow.

Forgiveness usually isn't applicable. People will make mistakes, and that's part of growth. If a major injustice is done, then forgiveness is applicable from those that were seriously harmed and for the person to forgive their own self and improve.

Although various viewpoints are helpful and necessary, it is a mistake to look for moral guidance or forgiveness from a book or from invisible gods. Some religions even teach that people need forgiveness as soon as they are born.

Ben Masada · Dec 28, 2010

Penumbra said:
What I mean is, religions that rely on forgiveness from an external source like a deity are typically shallow.

Forgiveness usually isn't applicable. People will make mistakes, and that's part of growth. If a major injustice is done, then forgiveness is applicable from those that were seriously harmed and for the person to forgive their own self and improve.

Although various viewpoints are helpful and necessary, it is a mistake to look for moral guidance or forgiveness from a book or from invisible gods. Some religions even teach that people need forgiveness as soon as they are born.

Of course, I understand you, and I do now and then. And I agree with you that for any harm done to each other in life, only forgiveness from each other is what counts. Even God that you can't believe, has nothing to do with forgiveness of any harm done between humans.

dyanaprajna2011 · Dec 28, 2010

BIG D said:
you'll never lust, be jealous,angry,etc???

It's an almost certainty that i will, but I don't have the problems with them now that I did as a Christian. I'm able to better control these passions now then I was before.

BIG D · Dec 29, 2010

mattmcneal31 said:
It's an almost certainty that i will, but I don't have the problems with them now that I did as a Christian. I'm able to better control these passions now then I was before.

but you still ''sin'' by doing them???

Beta · Dec 29, 2010

Penumbra said:
It's a good thing people don't follow the morality of the Bible because the Bible has fairly terrible morality. The people that wrote it were not very moral people.

They were just human and prone to err - like you and me !
ps. actually we are supposed to obey and follow Jesus Christ not other people !

dyanaprajna2011 · Dec 29, 2010

BIG D said:
but you still ''sin'' by doing them???

If that's what you wish to call it. I have a different view. You believe sin is caused by a fallen human nature due to the disobedience of first parents. I believe 'sin' (I'm calling it that for the sake of argument) is caused by wrong view about the true nature of reality. You believe that 'sin' is inherent in human nature; I do not. You believe that it is virtually impossible for one not to sin in some capacity; I do not. While it's true that I will continue to make mistakes, to 'sin' as you call it, I believe that there can be an end to this 'sinning'. It is true that all people 'sin' in some way, but we have differing views on the nature of such 'sin'. You believe that it took God becoming man and offering himself as a sacrifice in order to escape some penalty of sin. I believe that man has everything he needs inside himself to escape the desire to sin, and to escape sin itself.

paolops181 · Dec 29, 2010

Dirty Penguin said:
There is no such thing as sin.

In your own eyes.

waitasec · Dec 29, 2010

BIG D said:
but you still ''sin'' by doing them???

don't you?
what's the difference here? even though you are "saved" you still sin.
so, every time you sin, do you crucify jesus all over again?
seems like you have a higher standard and when you fail you are held
to be much more accountable then the rest of us who do not ascribe to this belief.

BIG D · Dec 29, 2010

waitasec said:
don't you?
what's the difference here? even though you are "saved" you still sin.
so, every time you sin, do you crucify jesus all over again?
seems like you have a higher standard and when you fail you are held
to be much more accountable then the rest of us who do not ascribe to this belief.

yes, doesn't everybody??we're programmed to sin, no?

waitasec · Dec 29, 2010

BIG D said:
yes, doesn't everybody??we're programmed to sin, no?

we also have the predisposition to do good.
it's not so one sided, is it?

dyanaprajna2011 · Dec 29, 2010

BIG D said:
yes, doesn't everybody??we're programmed to sin, no?

And that's another point where Christianity and Buddhism differ. In Christianity, sin is inherent in human nature. In Buddhism, sin is caused by ignorance and desire, not any predisposition to perform acts of vice. Which makes the cure different. In Christianity, sin is always going to happen in a person's life, regardless of prayer, performing virtuous acts, devotion to the deity. In Buddhism, a person, with their own power, can, and often does, overcome the desire to perform vices, because Buddhism teaches that in order to overcome these things, one has to have a right view of reality.

Nadia Faiazova · Jan 6, 2011

Bible says that we all inherited sin:" That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned" (Romans 5:12).Nevertheless, Bible encourages us to flee from the works of the flesh, which are "bitterness and anger and wrath and screaming and abusive speech" (Ephesians 4:31).Also in Ephesians 5:3, 4 we read: "Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness not even be mentioned among YOU, just as it befits holy people; 4*neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, things which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks" It takes efforts in order to change our perception and attitude toward others. But these efforts make our God happy and he helps people to overcome such trials.

waitasec · Jan 6, 2011

Nadia Faiazova said:
Bible says that we all inherited sin:" That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned" (Romans 5:12).Nevertheless, Bible encourages us to flee from the works of the flesh, which are "bitterness and anger and wrath and screaming and abusive speech" (Ephesians 4:31).Also in Ephesians 5:3, 4 we read: "Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness not even be mentioned among YOU, just as it befits holy people; 4*neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, things which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks" It takes efforts in order to change our perception and attitude toward others. But these efforts make our God happy and he helps people to overcome such trials.

it would be nice if you could at the very least paraphrase and convey your thoughts with your own understanding...i can always read the bible. you are so much more than that...

BIG D · Jan 6, 2011

mattmcneal31 said:
And that's another point where Christianity and Buddhism differ. In Christianity, sin is inherent in human nature. In Buddhism, sin is caused by ignorance and desire, not any predisposition to perform acts of vice. Which makes the cure different. In Christianity, sin is always going to happen in a person's life, regardless of prayer, performing virtuous acts, devotion to the deity. In Buddhism, a person, with their own power, can, and often does, overcome the desire to perform vices, because Buddhism teaches that in order to overcome these things, one has to have a right view of reality.

so buddhists never sin???

waitasec · Jan 6, 2011

BIG D said:
so buddhists never sin???

i think you're stuck on semantics.
sin is to miss the mark. ultimately it's when we let ourselves down- not god. we are only hurting ourselves. everyone misses the mark. no one is perfect. it's the notion that when we do miss the mark and let ourselves down there is a scapegoat we can turn to, in christianity and in judaism and islamic beliefs, which nevertheless doesn't take our accountability away, we still need to forgive ourselves for letting ourself down and to learn from the lesson.

BIG D · Jan 7, 2011

waitasec said:
we also have the predisposition to do good.
it's not so one sided, is it?

I believe people do goodit because of parenting/teaching/standard of living---look at Somalia, they were stealing food from children because of the standard of living...

Ben Masada · Jan 7, 2011

BIG D said:
isn't it just natural to sin<>to get angry, jealous, hate, fornicate,etc????who here has NEVER been angry??or really hated someone,maybe just a little??who here has NEVER sinned?

No, it is not. Man was created naturally good, according to Ecclesiastes 7:29. But due to his having been granted freewill, he ill-used it to do evil, made a habit of it,
and today it seems to us that it is natural to sin.

Sin=natural

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