Is homosexuality a choice?

Nerthus · Oct 30, 2010

Midnight Pete said:
Then why do only some people become alcoholics and not others if the conditioned process is widely in effect?

There are so many factors in why people drink. If you come from a home where someone was an alcoholic it's likely to not have been very pleasant, so you might turn to alcohol yourself to cope.

My father used to be an alcoholic - I'm fine. If anything I turned away from that because I saw the destruction it can do.

To say something like alcoholism has only one cause it ridiculous, you might have an addictive personality passed down, but cannot blame genes on your decision to drink.

Midnight Pete · Oct 30, 2010

Maimonides said:
Yeah well food allergies and alcoholism are perhaps far fetched realities from sexual orientation.

They are just comparisons.

Corkscrew · Oct 30, 2010

jimdand said:
Well, Corkscrew: You've read the replies.

In my opinion, you have one of the finest minds of the 15th Century. Why not stay there, where you belong?

Homosexuality ---- a "choice" --- excuse me? You're talking about "choice" as though it's a life-style. Going to Vegas and gambling --- that's a CHOICE. Choosing whether or not to go to Harvard? That's a CHOICE. Homosexuality? THAT is NOT a choice. I live in the arts community and have several gay friends. It has been my finding that NOT ONE OF THEM EVER "chose" to be homosexual.

What has, apparently, escaped you, in your stupidity is that you don't understand the human equation. Additionally, you are not "up on" current medical evidence: for example, Johns Hopkins University (you HAVE heard of this U, have you not?) conducted an extensive reseach that shows that homosexuals are born with a different brain pattern than their hetero counterparts. Hopefully (and I'm sure it does for most of us) that proves that gays are "born" --- it's NOT a matter of choice.

Let me put it in a way that you, stupid, MIGHT understand: O.K. -- you're straight. So, I tell you to go into a room and turn on "a light switch" and are now gay. You think you could DO this? Vis-a-vis: I'm gay, thus I'm going to go into the same room and turn on the switch --- and, voila, I'm now "straight"??? Excuse me? I DON'T THINK SO.

Not only is this ridiculous proclamation ridicuous --- it's obscene. How STUPID does it get.

Your post is not worthy of this forum. IF you are a Christian, would Jesus not come down and say unto you that you: "Have not followed my teachings" --- for it is Jesus who reached out to the disenfranchised: the lepers, the blind, the sick, the prostitutes, the homosexuals, the criminals, and all others whom were relegated "unfit for society". It is he who understood, forgave and gave love to those whom were born "under a different star" and were given a different path in life to follow.

So sorry that you're too STUPID to understand this. You have, in my opinion, the IQ of a salad bar. Again --- stay in the 15th Century, where you belong. By the way: how many "witches" have you condemned to death, by hanging or burning at the stake? I'm confident: many.

How STUPID does it get ??

jimdand

Holy Ignorance Batman!!! Thanks for the step-in Yourhopeboundheart. Jimdand, I hope for the sake of sanity you have not read anything I have posted; for if you did, I would have to conclude that your comprehension abilities are incredibly lacking.

jimdand · Dec 31, 2010

Well --- I certainly didn't mean to "ruffle" feathers in my post. I know it was "harsh". But I simply wanted to impart that homosexuality is NOT a "choice". That was my ONLY agenda.

I propbably mentioned in my post (and I'm not going to review it) that being gay is NOT a choice, or a "life-style". It is A LIFE. Many of of us have to live it. And deal with it.

From a Biblical dictum: all that I can fathom is that God gave life to all of us. Just WHOM HE gave life to, was never OUR choice. None of you ever "chose" to be born a camel, a goat, a snake --- or, more gremane to the issue: heterosexual or gay. YOU were NEVER given that choice.

So, please, do not call being gay a "life-style" --- or "choice". WE were never given a "choice".

I'm sorry if this flies into the face of fundamentalist Christianity, or Islam, or any other religion.

My most sincere regret is that (you) can't accept those whom were born under a different star, whose life was given to (them) by God/Allah. OUR LIFE was (HIS) choioce. Not ours.

There are no people on this earth who are more denigrated or hated than gay people. WHY?

We are NOT "gang-bangers", drug-dealers, drive-by killers, wife-beaters --- nor any of the other anti-social peoples who populate this planet. We are peace-loving people who simply wish to enjoy the love, with each other --- that is already provided to you, who are "straight".

As the old saying goes: "love conquers all". And that's what (WE) are all about.

After all is said and done --- we are no different from you "straight" people. We all have the same hopes, aspirations, dreams, goals, ideates --- and, most importantly of all, wan't to be accepted and welcomed unto your world.

How all of THAT is so WRONG --- I'll never know. Do you? I NEED to know. Because I don't get it.

And, I guess I never will.

jimdand

jimdand · Dec 31, 2010

And, by the way, "CORKSREW" (how appropriate) --- I do not appreicate your unarticulate and disrespectful reply:

"Holy Ignorance Batman!!! Thanks for the step-in Yourhopeboundheart. Jimdand, I hope for the sake of sanity you have not read anything I have posted; for if you did, I would have to conclude that your comprehension abilities are incredibly lacking."

"MY 'comprehension abilities' are incredibly lacking"? Excuse me? I think it is YOU who elucidates "lacking" --- as in the human equation.

For it is I, who best explained the nature, the meaning and true points of Chirstianity as it should be. You, on the other hand have, obviously, a controversial intent to your agenda. You are welcome unto the fold of those who would burn innocent women at the stake because "they are witches".

Malius Malificorum. Please return to the 15th Century, would you? Mirabile dictu.

My intent to explain my post has, apprarently fallen upon (your) deaf ears.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see".

IF, by any chance, I misunderstood you response to my post --- and indeed, you agree with my prescripts --- then, I apologize for having misunderstood, since I have not read your previous posts.

jimdand

Rakhel · Dec 31, 2010

The one thing I never understood was the angry defensiveness that I see from Homosexuals when they first "come out." My brother included. It was like he wanted us to reject him because he wasn't "straight." He was braced for a fight he never got, and that only made him more angry. And I see this a lot here. The old mantra is booming through the computer, "I'm here, I'm queer, you don't like it get the f*** out of here."

I agree, being homosexual is not a choice. Acting on it is. It is very much like being heterosexual. It is not a choice, acting on it. There are plenty of people out there, homo or hetero, that don't have sex, period.

It was pointed out in this thread that a straight man could not be turned on by another man and if he is then he's lying to himself(more or less). This is simply not true. I know many a straight man, and woman, that will straight up admit when they find the same sex attractive. This, by no means, makes them even kind of bi. That is someone who happens to be in tune with their own sexuality.
This is not something I speak of lightly. I have talked this over with a number of my gay friends. They were the ones that admitted acting on their sexual preference was a choice. One man had been married. Had kids. Divorced his wife and married a man he had fell in love with.
My own father participated in circle-jerks as a teen, but very much preferred women(as testament to the many children he had) Does that make him gay, or does he just have gay tendencies?

Maybe it was because of their ages. Most of the gay men I talked to were well past the age of caring what people thought of them and had mo anger in them unless it was directed at those who ****** them off directly. (If I could repeat what Paul said about the younger generation....It was highly insulting.) They helped me to understand my brother, to an extent. The anger he carries still gets me.

Rakhel · Jan 1, 2011

Once I left the forum I got to thinking about Paul. He was(hopefully still is) an amazing human being.
Paul was the first gay man my husband ever hugged, and this was after knowing he was ill. Old New Orleans family, still had a house down there(we met him in Arkansas), and he was the bar-back of the gay bar we called home.
He didn't care what gender you were or which you preferred. If he liked you, that was it. Contracted AIDS in the 80's, watched his partner die from it and decided to become faithful to his hand and his toy from there on out. He had tried everything at least once, and when I say everything, I mean everything. His favorite saying was "Don't knock it till you try it and there are somethings I will never try again."

The thing I remember most about him was he never said you are ether gay or straight. He had his own definition on who was gay and who was homosexual, and the distinctions went down from there. He hated queers and queens, was not too fond of drag queens and out right despised tweenks. He would tell you as is what was what, how he felt about you, and to hell with what others thought of him.
He was also the one that told me sex was a choice he made. It was an act. It did not make him homosexual or heterosexual. He was a gay man who chose to have sex with a man instead of a woman(which he had done a few times too). By his definition being homosexual was not a choice, living as a homosexual was.

Agnostic75 · Jan 1, 2011

Corkscrew said:
According to my religious friend, being gay is one’s own personal choice. He is of the opinion that since God, according to the bible, has made homosexuality a sin; he would not have allowed people to be born gay.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if he believes that being gay is a choice, doesn’t that mean he is capable of engaging in a homosexual affair at any time? He says he is heterosexual, but if he has a choice in his sexuality, wouldn’t this make him bi-sexual?

Assuming for the sake of argument that free will exists, most experts believe that sexual orientation "is not" a choice, and that homosexual acts "are" a choice.

It is important to note that even if a God inspired the original Bible, there is not sufficient evidence that the original Bible said anything about homosexuality, and even if it did, what it said might have been changed. In addition, there is not any scientific evidence that the alternatives of abstinence, celibacy, and reparative therapy generally work well for the majority of homosexuals.

Rainbow Mage · Jan 1, 2011

Corkscrew said:
According to my religious friend, being gay is ones own personal choice. He is of the opinion that since God, according to the bible, has made homosexuality a sin; he would not have allowed people to be born gay.
Correct me if Im wrong, but if he believes that being gay is a choice, doesnt that mean he is capable of engaging in a homosexual affair at any time? He says he is heterosexual, but if he has a choice in his sexuality, wouldnt this make him bi-sexual?

You can ask him when he made the choice to be heterosexual, and secondly, ask him how he would know homosexuals make a choice since he isn't gay. Thanks.

Diederick · Jan 3, 2011

rakhel said:
The one thing I never understood was the angry defensiveness that I see from Homosexuals when they first "come out." My brother included. It was like he wanted us to reject him because he wasn't "straight." He was braced for a fight he never got, and that only made him more angry. And I see this a lot here. The old mantra is booming through the computer, "I'm here, I'm queer, you don't like it get the f*** out of here."

Walking around knowing you're gay deep inside, in a world that seems to hate you for that thing that you've kept secret, does peculiar things to a human being. In the struggle that being closeted is, some even start hating themselves or their 'condition'. That closet can have a distinct and detrimental effect on one's mental health.

It would be good if young gay people knew the world isn't as bad as it may appear at first. Though some areas are better than others...

Evandr · Jan 3, 2011

Since God would not create you to "be" something and then command you not to be that, this whole idea of choice or no choice has only one logical answer. God created us all on equal ground many many millennia ago and we developed according to our own will. Homosexuality most certainly was a choice but one that was developed before we were born into mortality. It isn't God's fault that we have to deal with the character traits that we ourselves molded. It never ceases to amaze me how people can do things while completely ignoring the reality that some day they will all have to pay the piper (so to speak) and that when that day comes they think themselves abused and misunderstood. Hell is mental anguish resulting from bad choices. Being born into mortality with homosexual tendencies and then suffering thereby simply means that you're getting a little tiny taste of what it is like to live in hell. This whole debate about the social acceptance of the gay/lesbian lifestyle is no surprise, on one side of the line is simply a group of people who made unwise choices in pre-mortality and are trying to dodge living the consequences while in mortality. If you think homosexuals are facing mental anguish now...well... they have not experienced anything yet. If such is to be avoided then this is the time to do something about it while they still can.

gnomon · Jan 3, 2011

Evandr said:
Since God would not create you to "be" something and then command you not to be that, this whole idea of choice or no choice has only one logical answer. God created us all on equal ground many many millennia ago and we developed according to our own will. Homosexuality most certainly was a choice but one that was developed before we were born into mortality. It isn't God's fault that we have to deal with the character traits that we ourselves molded. It never ceases to amaze me how people can do things while completely ignoring the reality that some day they will all have to pay the piper (so to speak) and that when that day comes they think themselves abused and misunderstood. Hell is mental anguish resulting from bad choices. Being born into mortality with homosexual tendencies and then suffering thereby simply means that you're getting a little tiny taste of what it is like to live in hell. This whole debate about the social acceptance of the gay/lesbian lifestyle is no surprise, on one side of the line is simply a group of people who made unwise choices in pre-mortality and are trying to dodge living the consequences while in mortality. If you think homosexuals are facing mental anguish now...well... they have not experienced anything yet. If such is to be avoided then this is the time to do something about is while they still can.

Pre-mortality?

So your opinion is that homosexuals, living ones, post conception/birth ones, are doomed because of decisions they made before they had a brain with which to even conceive of the idea. That the spirit, before entering the mortal body (however in the world that works), decided to be gay before conception?

But this also means that every person who shall ever live a mortal life already exists in some form and they are sitting around deciding what they are going to be when they are born. Because homosexuality is based on physiology. If the people decided to be gay before they were even conceived than they can control the physiology of the developing body.

So where does that leave children who are born with Down Syndrome or Harlequin Ichthyosis? Did the spirit decide to be born with a severe mental disorder or congenital defect?

Dan4reason · Jan 3, 2011

Evandr said:
Since God would not create you to "be" something and then command you not to be that, this whole idea of choice or no choice has only one logical answer. God created us all on equal ground many many millennia ago and we developed according to our own will. Homosexuality most certainly was a choice but one that was developed before we were born into mortality. It isn't God's fault that we have to deal with the character traits that we ourselves molded. It never ceases to amaze me how people can do things while completely ignoring the reality that some day they will all have to pay the piper (so to speak) and that when that day comes they think themselves abused and misunderstood. Hell is mental anguish resulting from bad choices. Being born into mortality with homosexual tendencies and then suffering thereby simply means that you're getting a little tiny taste of what it is like to live in hell. This whole debate about the social acceptance of the gay/lesbian lifestyle is no surprise, on one side of the line is simply a group of people who made unwise choices in pre-mortality and are trying to dodge living the consequences while in mortality. If you think homosexuals are facing mental anguish now...well... they have not experienced anything yet. If such is to be avoided then this is the time to do something about it while they still can.

People do not entirely do things based on their ideas and do not entirely mold their personalities. For example, you cannot choose to not be attracted to women, you cannot entirely choose what you feel, and what you desire. You have a certain level of self-control but most of the time you do not let that get in the way of your desires. I admit we have some choice about what we feel but that only scratches the surface. Our personalities are complex and our mind operates mostly automatically.

Evandr · Jan 3, 2011

gnomon said:
Pre-mortality?

gnomon said:
So your opinion is that homosexuals, living ones, post conception/birth ones, are doomed because of decisions they made before they had a brain with which to even conceive of the idea. That the spirit, before entering the mortal body (however in the world that works), decided to be gay before conception?

Are you saying that homosexuals have to conceive of the idea? I thought they were not in control of it.

But this also means that every person who shall ever live a mortal life already exists in some form and they are sitting around deciding what they are going to be when they are born. Because homosexuality is based on physiology. If the people decided to be gay before they were even conceived than they can control the physiology of the developing body.

The mortal body is a gift created by God and given to us. I think you have it backwards. The given psychology of the individual can have an impact on the developing physiology of the body as it grows. I am not an expert in that area but I do know that the mental state of the person can effect the physical condition of that person.

So where does that leave children who are born with Down Syndrome or Harlequin Ichthyosis? Did the spirit decide to be born with a severe mental disorder or congenital defect?

There is a difference between challenges born of our choice and that born of mortal imperfection. Grey matter is not necessary for intellect to exist. In pre-mortality we did have intellect and you can be sure we knew and understood who God was and we were taught the difference between right and wrong. One third the host of Heaven was cast out for rebellion so it only goes to reason that stupidity was present in all levels and a force to be reckoned with. The idea that homosexuality is pure physiology and is the controlling factor of psychology is nonsense. It's the life force within that controls our actions and that life force was developed long before the physical body was created to house it. We have been given a promise by our creator that we will never have to face a challenge that we cannot overcome and that means homosexuality (even if it was our doing in the first place). A person may have been born into mortality with such tendencies but rest assured that those will not translate into compulsory activity without the individual making it happen. The ease by which one can make it happen is determined by the character traits we brought with us and therefore it is we who are held accountable for such.

It is sad that homosexuals are banking on the idea that, if they are indeed out of line the claiming that "the devil made me do it" will somehow vindicate them - it will not.

gnomon · Jan 3, 2011

Evandr said:
Are you saying that homosexuals have to conceive of the idea? I thought they were not in control of it.
The mortal body is a gift created by God and given to us. I think you have it backwards. The given psychology of the individual can have an impact on the developing physiology of the body as it grows. I am not an expert in that area but I do know that the mental state of the person can effect the physical condition of that person.
There is a difference between challenges born of our choice and that born of mortal imperfection. Grey matter is not necessary for intellect to exist. In pre-mortality we did have intellect and you can be sure we knew and understood who God was and we were taught the difference between right and wrong. One third the host of Heaven was cast out for rebellion so it only goes to reason that stupidity was present in all levels and a force to be reckoned with. The idea that homosexuality is pure physiology and is the controlling factor of psychology is nonsense. It's the life force within that controls our actions and that life force was developed long before the physical body was created to house it. We have been given a promise by our creator that we will never have to face a challenge that we cannot overcome and that means homosexuality (even if it was our doing in the first place). A person may have been born into mortality with such tendencies but rest assured that those will not translate into compulsory activity without the individual making it happen. The ease by which one can make it happen is determined by the character traits we brought with us and therefore it is we who are held accountable for such.

It is sad that homosexuals are banking on the idea that, if they are indeed out of line the claiming that "the devil made me do it" will somehow vindicate them - it will not.

I'm not saying homosexuals conceive the idea of being homosexual before they are physically conceived. I thought that was what you are saying.

So you are saying that homosexuality is not based on physiology (hormonal development) or that a pre-mortal choice shapes physiology?

edit: And if you answer to that question is yes I have another question for you.

Rainbow Mage · Jan 3, 2011

Evandr you need to get educated about homosexuality and actually meet some homosexuals and talk to them about this stuff. I'll be glad to answer any questions you have.

Evandr · Jan 3, 2011

gnomon said:
I'm not saying homosexuals conceive the idea of being homosexual before they are physically conceived. I thought that was what you are saying.

So you are saying that homosexuality is not based on physiology (hormonal development) or that a pre-mortal choice shapes physiology?

edit: And if you answer to that question is yes I have another question for you.

I'm not saying that homosexuality was even something that was understood in pre-mortality, but, there had to be something that we willfully pursued against our training, be it a rebellious attitude or whatever, that translated into a weakness for the homosexual lifestyle in mortality and, yes, I believe that it is very possible that those latent character traits very well could have had an effect on the physical development of the body from the moment of birth but I do not know that for sure. It is the only thing that reconciles the commandments of God with physiology. Also, Lucifer is very real and knows our weaknesses better than we do and will prey on them relentlessly. And another thing, when it comes to physiology I think that there is a great deal left to learn and this whole physiology link to homosexuality idea could be way off track and completely wrong. All I know is that homosexuality can be dealt with and if it proves to be too hard then it is because we failed to develop the strength in our pre-existence to deal with it effectively. Such will show what we are capable of and therefore what we can or cannot be given with reference to receiving the power of God.

gnomon · Jan 3, 2011

Evandr said:
I'm not saying that homosexuality was even something that was understood in pre-mortality, but, there had to be something that we willfully pursued against our training, be it a rebellious attitude or whatever, that translated into a weakness for the homosexual lifestyle in mortality and, yes, I believe that it is very possible that those latent character traits very well could have had an effect on the physical development of the body from the moment of birth but I do not know that for sure. It is the only thing that reconciles the commandments of God with physiology. Also, Lucifer is very real and knows our weaknesses better than we do and will prey on them relentlessly. And another thing, when it comes to physiology I think that there is a great deal left to learn and this whole physiology link to homosexuality idea could be way off track and completely wrong. All I know is that homosexuality can be dealt with and if it proves to be too hard then it is because we failed to develop the strength in our pre-existence to deal with it effectively. Such will show what we are capable of and therefore what we can or cannot be given with reference to receiving the power of God.

And where do the intersex individuals fit in with all this?

Looncall · Jan 3, 2011

Evandr said:
Since God would not create you to "be" something and then command you not to be that, this whole idea of choice or no choice has only one logical answer. God created us all on equal ground many many millennia ago and we developed according to our own will. Homosexuality most certainly was a choice but one that was developed before we were born into mortality. It isn't God's fault that we have to deal with the character traits that we ourselves molded. It never ceases to amaze me how people can do things while completely ignoring the reality that some day they will all have to pay the piper (so to speak) and that when that day comes they think themselves abused and misunderstood. Hell is mental anguish resulting from bad choices. Being born into mortality with homosexual tendencies and then suffering thereby simply means that you're getting a little tiny taste of what it is like to live in hell. This whole debate about the social acceptance of the gay/lesbian lifestyle is no surprise, on one side of the line is simply a group of people who made unwise choices in pre-mortality and are trying to dodge living the consequences while in mortality. If you think homosexuals are facing mental anguish now...well... they have not experienced anything yet. If such is to be avoided then this is the time to do something about it while they still can.

Premortality? This a new kind of guff to me. What evidence can you provide that there is many such thing?

This sounds to me to be just another excuse for bigotry.

Evandr · Jan 3, 2011

gnomon said:
And where do the intersex individuals fit in with all this?

intersex?

Is homosexuality a choice?

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