The nature of the Christian God.

I would like to debate the nature of God (aka God the Father). I am thinking in terms of the Christian God specifically.

My position is that the verses in Genesis which state that we are created in the image and after the likeness of God should be taken literally. In other words, I believe in an anthropomorphic God, a God who has a human form, a God with body parts and passions.

John 4:23-24. God is spirit. That is the nature of God, Spirit. He is invisible (Col. 1;15, Tim. 1;17, Heb. 11;27) as opposed to the physical or material nature of man. Jesus, in His incarnation, is the visible image of the invisible God.<> The Our Image in Genesis defined mans unique relation to God. Man, being a living being and capable of ....conforming, no, embodying...Gods communicable attributes. In his rational life he was like God in that he could reason and had intelligence or intellect, emotion, will... In a moral sense he was like God because he was good and sinless. (before the test).<> The greatest 'passion' in the world, is the passion God has for your soul.

pik48 said:

John 4:23-24. God is spirit. That is the nature of God, Spirit. He is invisible (Col. 1;15, Tim. 1;17, Heb. 11;27) as opposed to the physical or material nature of man. Jesus, in His incarnation, is the visible image of the invisible God.<> The Our Image in Genesis defined mans unique relation to God. Man, being a living being and capable of ....conforming, no, embodying...Gods communicable attributes. In his rational life he was like God in that he could reason and had intelligence or intellect, emotion, will... In a moral sense he was like God because he was good and sinless. (before the test).<> The greatest 'passion' in the world, is the passion God has for your soul.

Click to expand...

How could he be invisible if Moses saw him face to face?

pik48 said:

John 4:23-24. God is spirit. That is the nature of God, Spirit. He is invisible (Col. 1;15, Tim. 1;17, Heb. 11;27) as opposed to the physical or material nature of man. Jesus, in His incarnation, is the visible image of the invisible God.

Click to expand...

Okay, let's start with your belief that spirits are invisible and have no physical form. When Jesus first appeared to His Apostles as a resurrected being, they were afraid because they "supposed that they had seen a spirit." Jesus responded by saying, "a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." He didn't say, "How on earth could you have seen a spirit? Spirits are invisible! Surely you know that!" Furthermore, it stands to reason that they not only thought they'd seen "a" spirit, but that they apparently thought that the spirit they'd seen was His spirit. They assumed, of course, that He was dead, and here was a being that looked just like Him. To them, the only logical explanation was that they were seeing His spirit. Spirits, then, are not invisible, or at least they need not necessarily be.

You have mentioned three verses in which God is described as being "invisible." The Greek word (aoratos) translated in these verses as "invisible," is actually correctedly translated not as "unseeable" but as "unseen." The far side of the moon may be unseen, but it certainly could be seen if we were to be able to view it from a different perspective. It is true that God the Father is seldom seen by man, and can, from that standpoint, be described as "invisible." Romans 1:20, is probably the best example I can think of to demonstrate what I'm saying. It states, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen." Things, then, that are invisible are not necessarily "unseeable;" they may simply been "unseen" at any given time.

Finally, we know (if we can trust the Bible) that God has appeared to human beings and, according to those He appeared to, had the physical appearance of a man. Jacob and Moses both said that they had seen God. Their choice of words strongly suggests that they were speaking literally and not figuratively.

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

That's all for now. But it's my no means all the thoughts I have on the subject. Thanks for your comments. I'll be looking forward to hearing more from you.

Kathryn

Genesis 32:30. Who is this that Jacob saw face to face? Hosea 12:4 gives the answer. Exodus 33;11, keep reading through 18-23. John 1:18. 1 John 4:12. <> Jesus actually said does a spirit have flesh and bones as you see i have. Superstitious apostles. They didnt understand anything until Jesus opened their eyes later in verse 45 of Luke 24.<> Well anyway. Does it really do any of us any good to argue scripture? Imagine what the unbeliever thinks of 'us' so called christians arguing over scripture. It reminds me of when the apostles asked Jesus about the blind man, who sinned that he is born blind. Was it this man or his parents that sinned that he was born blind. They were wrapped up in old testament legalism, they saw neither the man nor his parents, but only an oppurtunity for theological discussion. They were curious not compassionate. Jesus tells them i must work the works of Him who sent me while it is still day, the night is coming when no one can work. We are to follow Jesus. Acts 1:8, to be His witness. He had no time to waste on theology. He had a mission. We put little phrases at the end of our posts, such as you have about God's love...or anyone, not just you, Yet our writings reflect strong words against each other. And we expect the Lord to 'love' us for our theological discussions posted on the internet for all to see. Yes, Jesus taught at every given moment. Not from pride of knowledge, but from compassion and love for His creation. He never once comprimised His word. Not even with the harlot the pharisees wanted to stone. Not even to the pharisees or scribes did he compromise His word. He who is 'among you' without sin can cast the first stone. Taught them all. And they saw what He taught by a simple act of Him bending down and writing in the dirt twice. They saw what He meant. The answer is in Exodus and Luke. And that has everything to do with this. For are we truly following the true God by bickering amongst ourselves? And are we truly loving our neighbor as our self? Cliffy isnt, i pray we all will, not just me.

Isn't it funny how when people get smacked with the truth they condemn you for "arguing?" As I recall, you chose to argue with Katzpur by posting that you thought God was a spirit.

pik48 said:

Does it really do any of us any good to argue scripture?

We put little phrases at the end of our posts, such as you have about God's love...or anyone, not just you, Yet our writings reflect strong words against each other.

For are we truly following the true God by bickering amongst ourselves? And are we truly loving our neighbor as our self?

Click to expand...

pik,

I'm sorry you saw my response as arguing or bickering. This is, after all, a debate forum. People post on this forum because they are interested in debate. In my opening post, I specifically said I wanted to debate this particular topic. I was happy to see someone respond. You are relatively new here, and it certainly wasn't my intention to offend you. Perhaps you will want to stick to the "discussion" forums and avoid the "debate" ones.

In all honesty, I can't, for the life of me, see how anything I wrote could possible be construed as "strong words against each other."

Kathryn

Katzpur, you never offended me at all, not even close. No reason to apologize at all. As for debating, Is it what God really wants us to do? <>Aqualung. I never condemned anyone for arguing. It wasnt i that 'thought' God is spirit. It is God Himself. Your post Aqualung is a Classic example of what i was talking about in my earlier post. Not just this thread, but others we post in also. Just as my answer back to you is the same. Round and round we go. I remember why years ago i told myself to stop going to these forums. I can remember having many many posts in forums like this, and it was just round and round till one just got tired of posting. We claim to know God and His word. Yet we sure bicker over it, dont we? Jesus healed people and what did he tell them,[ before He became the 'show'], afterwards? Go tell your friends and family. For they are the ones who will truly see your new self. Not strangers.<> I can see Pauls plea in Romans in my mind. 7;24-25

pik48 said:

Katzpur, you never offended me at all, not even close. No reason to apologize at all. As for debating, Is it what God really wants us to do? <>Aqualung. I never condemned anyone for arguing. It wasnt i that 'thought' God is spirit. It is God Himself. Your post Aqualung is a Classic example of what i was talking about in my earlier post. Not just this thread, but others we post in also. Just as my answer back to you is the same. Round and round we go. I remember why years ago i told myself to stop going to these forums. I can remember having many many posts in forums like this, and it was just round and round till one just got tired of posting. We claim to know God and His word. Yet we sure bicker over it, dont we? Jesus healed people and what did he tell them,[ before He became the 'show'], afterwards? Go tell your friends and family. For they are the ones who will truly see your new self. Not strangers.<> I can see Pauls plea in Romans in my mind. 7;24-25

Click to expand...

Oh, I see. I guess I misunderstood the motives behind your posts.:bonk:

Katzpur said:

I would like to debate the nature of God (aka God the Father). I am thinking in terms of the Christian God specifically.

My position is that the verses in Genesis which state that we are created in the image and after the likeness of God should be taken literally. In other words, I believe in an anthropomorphic God, a God who has a human form, a God with body parts and passions.

Click to expand...

Katzpur, sorry, I am being thick. Are you asking us to accept the idea of God in human form, and then further debate him, or are you open to debate about whether we all accept him in that way?

michel said:

Katzpur, sorry, I am being thick. Are you asking us to accept the idea of God in human form, and then further debate him, or are you open to debate about whether we all accept him in that way?

Click to expand...

Hi, Michael.

No, I realize that we don't have this belief in common. I know that the vast majority of Christians don't believe God has a human form. I'm saying that He does and that the Bible provides plenty of evidence for my position. Most Christians cite John 4:24 as the sole support for their point of view and consider the case closed. But I believe what John 4:24 says, too! I believe that God is spirit; I just don't believe that He is only spirit. I think there is far too much biblical evidence that He does have a human form for us to logically interpret all references to His face, His feet, His back parts, etc. as being figurative in nature. Since the nature of God is one of the main differences between Mormons and mainstream Christianty, I wanted the opportunity to show that my beliefs definitely are based on what is taught in the Bible. That's all.

Kathryn

O.K, I see your point.

pik48 said:

I remember why years ago i told myself to stop going to these forums. I can remember having many many posts in forums like this, and it was just round and round till one just got tired of posting.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I know what you're saying, and you're right. Round and round till somebody gets tired of posting, or until someone gets so mad he can't see straight anymore. I sincerely don't believe that God is pleased when He sees His children fighting, and I can assure you that I am never one to pick a fight. I post on forums like this primarily for four reasons: (1) I want to correct misconceptions other Christians have about LDS doctrine, (2) I want to show non-Christians that not all Christians believe they will be condemned to an eternity in Hell, (3) I want to encourage people to think outside the box, to consider ideas than may run counter to what they have always been taught, and (4) I want to learn where other people are coming from, so that I will be better able to understand why they believe as they do.

For the most part, I post on threads which deal with subjects that I feel very strongly about, but that I feel can be discussed without insults ultimately being traded. I don't waste my time trying to convice atheists to believe in God. It's not going to work. I seldom post on threads which take the position that "God hates gays!" It's not my business to tell anyone that God hates them. But I do post on threads concerning the nature of God and our relationship to Him. I do like to debate the LDS belief in a universal Apostasy, because I am so convinced that there was one. I will discuss any doctrine I believe was corrupted by that Apostasy. I also stand up for my own beliefs in the face of malicious criticism. Fortunately, on this forum, I don't have to do that a lot.

But, I agree with you that fighting is not the way to convince anyone of anything.

Kathryn