Can 500+ Eyewitnesses Be Wrong?

Fluffy · Sep 8, 2005

Here's the thing, Fluffy. The Bible is a very unique book, it was written:

over a period of 1500 years

by 40 men who hardly knew each other

on three continents

in three languages

by a variety of occupations (herdsmen to kings)

for a variety of reasons

in a variety of circumstances (on the run, as well as sitting at home

Now look Ill take your word on these things because I honestly don't know enough about the background about the Bible to disagree with you. And, given this, I do agree with you that the Bible is very unique. What it proves beyond that is less clear though.

And yet, there are no contradictions in doctrine, or the way they describe God, or the things that God tells them to do, or anything.

Okay right it is this that I disagree with. First of all, I believe that there are clear contradictions in the Bible. Secondly, the lack of contradictions between 2 pieces of writing is not a basis for its validity. If I write an article on brick work and one on sky diving, there may be no contradictions in either but such is not a reason for their validity.

Agreement between the authors should be a reason for validity not lack of contradictions. I think that agreement between the authors of the Bible does happen but about as regularly as, say, the contradictions. Furthermore, I think agreement is naturally more likely because I believe that the Bible has clearly been changed by people after the original authors in order to bring the texts more in line with each other. Additionally, some of the authors had access to large parts of what is now the Bible and therefore, their writings would have been influenced by this. Therefore, agreement is caused by other things, not divine intervention.

Now that's quite an accomplishment. Try that today and see what happens, even super-simplifying it.

put just 5 people that do know each other in separate rooms

tell each one to write a chapter of a murder mystery

assign the chapters to each individual so they know where they are in the story

then compare the final product

It would be total gibberish. A chaotic mess with no continuity.

This would be a matter of opinion. People have said the same of the Bible. Why should either their or your opinion be valued more highly?

No other writing in history even comes close!

The Koran.

And that's just ONE point. There are more. Such as mentioning empires that scientists swore didn't exist (to wit, the Hittites and the Medes). Calling a person by name (Josiah in 1 Kings 13:2) 340 years before he was born.

Mentioning empires that would dominate the world, when at the time, the empire was still in its infancy.

And I didn't even touch on the prophecies concerning Jesus.

You have to admit, that's much more than coincidence!

It might be more than coincidence. It really honestly might be. I am certainly not going to rule out that possibility. But I am not not ruling it out because of these arguments. Nor should anybody. Afterall the Bible specificly states that faith should be blind. I ask again, is your faith in God based on these arguments or your personal relationship with God? Which one triggered your conversion to Christianity?

greatcalgarian · Sep 8, 2005

AV1611 said:
No thanks --- the Greeks have too high a margin-of-error ratio. I'll take it in English any day. Where the King James Bible differs from the Greek translations, the Greek translations are wrong.

Very very illogical. English version are translated from Greek, and you are saying Greek translations are wrong?

Perhaps your King James is derived from Latin version, but then Latin version is from Greek / Hebrews as well...

AHHH, looks like you are not familiar with the development / canonization of the bible:jam:

Please do some homework:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/ingerhb.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gerald_larue/otll/index.shtml
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/canon.php
http://www.christianorigins.com/

michel · Sep 8, 2005

Fluffy said:
Afterall the Bible specificly states that faith should be blind. I ask again, is your faith in God based on these arguments or your personal relationship with God? Which one triggered your conversion to Christianity?

An excellent question, Fluffy!

My faith in God is based on my own personal relationship with Him. He sought me out, not vice-versa. At the time I got saved, I knew there was something missing in my life. A void, so to speak, was there that only He could (and did) fill.

This is not a blind faith, Fluffy, as now I can agree with Paul when he said in 2 Timothy 1:12 ---

I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED, AND AM PERSUADED THAT HE IS ABLE TO KEEP THAT WHICH I HAVE COMMITED UNTO HIM AGAINST THAT DAY.

I can also agree with what Peter said in 2 Peter 1:16 ---

FOR WE HAVE NOT FOLLOWED CUNNINGLY DEVISED FABLES...

I guess I really don't know what triggered my conversion to Christianity other than the fact that God has embedded in us a desire to "look [up] for something better". An "upward pull" to "Something out there" ... if you know what I'm saying.

It's just a "feeling" that Someone is out there, anxiously awaiting to take our call, and that He has been here before.

I hope this makes sense.

joeboonda · Sep 8, 2005

drekmed said:
drekmed said:

just out of curiosity, did any of the disciples write about jesus being seen by 500+ people after the resurrection? i tend to think more highly of their writings than Paul's because they actually met and went around with jesus. as far as i know, only paul states that he actually met jesus, there are no other writings by anybody but paul that i can find to back his claims.

Click to expand...

Luke, a historian of the highest degree, wrote the book of acts.

michel · Sep 8, 2005

greatcalgarian said:
Very very illogical. English version are translated from Greek, and you are saying Greek translations are wrong?

Perhaps your King James is derived from Latin version, but then Latin version is from Greek / Hebrews as well...

AHHH, looks like you are not familiar with the development / canonization of the bible:jam:

Please do some homework:

I appreciate your wanting to educate me on where my Bible came from, but I already know.

It came from the following "thread":

Autographs --- then became ---
Scripture (2nd-generation autographs) --- then became ---
Koine Greek --- (NOT Classical Greek that the NIV, etc. come from) --- then became
Gothic Scriptures (NOT the Greek junk that the Catholics played around with) --- then became
The Authorized King James Version

In other words, when the kids were playing around with the Greek manuscripts, God made sure the adults had the Byzantine (Gothic) Scriptures.

michel · Sep 8, 2005

joeboonda said:
Luke, a historian of the highest degree, wrote the book of acts.

Hi, Joe!

I totally agree!

greatcalgarian · Sep 8, 2005

AV1611 said:
Hi, Joe!

I totally agree!

Right on, the historian that obtained his PhD from Havard, I presumed.

Actually according to the copy of the KJV, the introduction to Acts by the editor(s) is as follow:

The writer is, without doubt, Luke. The book has the same introductory address as his Gospel, and takes up the history where the third Gospel leaves it, giving in greater detail the account of the Ascension, with which that Gospel closes.

greatcalgarian · Sep 8, 2005

AV1611 said:
I appreciate your wanting to educate me on where my Bible came from, but I already know.

It came from the following "thread":

Autographs --- then became ---
Scripture (2nd-generation autographs) --- then became ---
Koine Greek --- (NOT Classical Greek that the NIV, etc. come from) --- then became
Gothic Scriptures (NOT the Greek junk that the Catholics played around with) --- then became
The Authorized King James Version

In other words, when the kids were playing around with the Greek manuscripts, God made sure the adults had the Byzantine (Gothic) Scriptures.

Congratulation on your one track mind. I still hope you will read those web link.

michel · Sep 9, 2005

greatcalgarian said:
Right on, the historian that obtained his PhD from Havard, I presumed.

Actually according to the copy of the KJV, the introduction to Acts by the editor(s) is as follow:

The writer is, without doubt, Luke. The book has the same introductory address as his Gospel, and takes up the history where the third Gospel leaves it, giving in greater detail the account of the Ascension, with which that Gospel closes.

You don't need some goofy editor's commentary. Just read the text itself, and it will tell you.

Luke 1:3 = ...TO WRITE UNTO THEE IN ORDER, MOST EXCELLENT THEOPHILUS.

Acts 1:1 = THE FORMER TREATISE HAVE I MADE, O THEOPHILUS...

Commentaries are for kids, the text is for the big boys.

JerryL · Sep 9, 2005

Luke, a historian of the highest degree, wrote the book of acts.

Can you offer any support at all? What other histories did Luke write? How can we establish the gospel of Luke was written by the same person? How do we establish him to be "an historian of the highest degree".

In short, I think you are asserting somethig for which there is no real support. The Gospels are unsigned, we cannot even be certain who the authors are... and we certainly have no other workd from them establishing their methodology nor reliability.

Luke is widely believed in Christian circles to be written by a deciple of Paul. Paul is cited as referring to it as "my gospel". Since it really cannot offer new insight, I have to presume that the gospel is a political tool; and indeed it falls more in-line with Pauls preaching. It's essentially ghost-written for Paul, who never met Jesus (hence the neccessity of his "Jesus came to me, and 500 unnamed people saw it" claim).

painted wolf · Sep 9, 2005

if we have only been around 4000 years why would god lie to us about it? Why would he put fake ancestors in our earth and why would he give us a culture with a fake history?
Big Horn mecine wheel has been in CONTINUOUS use for over 7000 years. How did God fake that and get us to buy it???? :areyoucra

Again that's nice, but you're leaving too much out. Did many of your authors die a martyr's death?

I've already answered this question... yes.

Were they hounded relentlessly by their own people - even to the point of one wanting to take his own life?

yup... many still are.

Was their authority challenged by their own brother and sister?

yup... many still are.

Did one wrestle with the Creator of the Universe in hand-to-hand combat?

Our creator doesn't believe in solving his problems thorough violence....
does the fact that your god was willing to personally physically attack someone make him more believable?

Michel- I'm just mirroring AVI's statement about not going into detail on the 'my prophet said this' game. Personally to me this isn't the place to discuss who's got a better track record of prophecy. I'm sure Nostradamus fans would love to get in on that sort of thing.

wa:do

Click to expand...

Feathers in Hair · Sep 9, 2005

painted wolf said:
if we have only been around 4000 years why would god lie to us about it? Why would he put fake ancestors in our earth and why would he give us a culture with a fake history?
Big Horn mecine wheel has been in CONTINUOUS use for over 7000 years. How did God fake that and get us to buy it???? :areyoucra

But the fact that he faked you into using a Medicine Wheel for over 7000 years is proof of this god's power! He even made it work! How clever is that! (It couldn't be anything like, y'know, proof of another path being valid.

)

michel · Sep 9, 2005

JerryL said:
Can you offer any support at all? What other histories did Luke write? How can we establish the gospel of Luke was written by the same person? How do we establish him to be "an historian of the highest degree".

In short, I think you are asserting somethig for which there is no real support. The Gospels are unsigned, we cannot even be certain who the authors are... and we certainly have no other workd from them establishing their methodology nor reliability.

Luke is widely believed in Christian circles to be written by a deciple of Paul. Paul is cited as referring to it as "my gospel". Since it really cannot offer new insight, I have to presume that the gospel is a political tool; and indeed it falls more in-line with Pauls preaching. It's essentially ghost-written for Paul, who never met Jesus (hence the neccessity of his "Jesus came to me, and 500 unnamed people saw it" claim).

Just simplify it and say God wrote it. You would be correct. The human writers were just inspired stenographers, so to speak.

michel · Sep 9, 2005

[PART QUOTE=painted wolf]

..................."Michel- I'm just mirroring AVI's statement about not going into detail on the 'my prophet said this' game. Personally to me this isn't the place to discuss who's got a better track record of prophecy. I'm sure Nostradamus fans would love to get in on that sort of thing"........................

wa:do[/PART QUOTE]

Fair enough, I was 'just interested'.

michel · Sep 9, 2005

painted wolf said:
if we have only been around 4000 years why would god lie to us about it?

For the umpteenth time, He did a poor job lying about it didn't he? Just add the times of death of the patriarchs in the OT, add the 400 years between the testaments, the 2000 years after that, and you come to only 6000 years since Adam.

Why would he put fake ancestors in our earth and why would he give us a culture with a fake history?
Big Horn mecine wheel has been in CONTINUOUS use for over 7000 years. How did God fake that and get us to buy it???? :areyoucra

Who, specifically is "he" in your above quote? What is his name? I'm lost on this one. Who put fake ancestors "in our Earth"?

michel · Sep 9, 2005

AV, I admire your fortitude (or is it fivetitude ? - it sure is big!). I don't understand how you can compete in your assertions (which you are welcome to believe in) against every single bit of scientific data that shows otherwise ?

painted wolf · Sep 9, 2005

he the one who according to you faked my history and culture. Your god of the imbedded age.
if you add up the generations (and evidence) that have been using the big horn medicine wheel you get more than 7000 years worth of people.

Why would your god fake our history? Surely he would have no need to make us think we were around longer than 6000 years?

maybe he just made us first and put your Adam on earth a thousand years after us?
It would make sence to me, my religion says that god made my people first anyway.

wa:do

michel · Sep 9, 2005

painted wolf said:
he the one who according to you faked my history and culture. Your god of the imbedded age.
if you add up the generations (and evidence) that have been using the big horn medicine wheel you get more than 7000 years worth of people.

Why would your god fake our history? Surely he would have no need to make us think we were around longer than 6000 years?

maybe he just made us first and put your Adam on earth a thousand years after us?
It would make sence to me, my religion says that god made my people first anyway.

wa:do

Trust you to be at the front of the line.:biglaugh:

michel · Sep 9, 2005

michel said:
AV, I admire your fortitude (or is it fivetitude ? - it sure is big!). I don't understand how you can compete in your assertions (which you are welcome to believe in) against every single bit of scientific data that shows otherwise ?

LOL, Michel, "fivetitude", that's pretty good!

I always subordinate "science" to the Bible, as I have made up my mind years ago that God, Himself is the Author of science. Therefore science cannot contradict God.

Here's a good example:

According to "science", rocks show evidence of evolution - BUT - what did Jesus say to the Pharisees when the Pharisees wanted Jesus to tell His disciples to shut up?

Luke 19:40 = ... I TELL YOU THAT, IF THESE SHOULD HOLD THEIR PEACE, THE STONES WOULD IMMEDIATELY CRY OUT.

So even geology testifys of Jesus.

Anyway ... it's been a "long day" ... sorry for stepping on peoples' toes, but I believe what I believe.

michel · Sep 9, 2005

Which you have every right to; I even admire you for your six-titude.

Can 500+ Eyewitnesses Be Wrong?

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