Why is universalism heresy?

Katzpur said:

Mormonism is the only Christian denomination I am aware of which believes pretty much what you have said. I know of individual Christians who believe this but, unless I am mistaken, it is not an official doctrine of any Christian denomination except for Mormonism.

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I don't think Mormonism should be included as a Christian denomination. It's too different.

Without hell, what is the meaning of the crucifixion? What significance could the death of Jesus possibly have had if there was no eternal hell as the result of sin? Jesus is called Saviour, but that word implies that there is salvation from something beyond earthly existence.

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There is lots of significance, actually. According to Marcus Borg, Karen Armstrong, and other scholars, there are actually five different interpretations of the atonement. My favorite is the interpretation of dying to self to be reborn, a continuous reality. Hell is when we have not died to ourselves -- seen the ego for the illusion it is. Heaven is losing self to be united with God (resurrection). Also, according to Borg the first Jewish Christians didn't mean the statement "Jesus died for my sin" literally. To the Jewish (and many others) mind, this is sacrilege, as the Torah forbids human sacrifice. Rather, this was the response of Jewish Christians to other Jews who would ask how Christians could be forgiven without temple sacrifices. Replying that Christ died for their sins meant that in the death of Christ, these Jewish Christians saw the power and love of God revealed. This revelation of God in the life and death of Christ was so transforming, no sacrifices were needed for forgiveness. It is ironic that today the statement usually means the opposite -- that human sacrifice is required as atonement. The more literal understanding of the atonement did not become normative in Christianity until the ninth century according to Marcus Borg in his The Heart of Christianity.

Mormonism is the only Christian denomination I am aware of which believes pretty much what you have said. I know of individual Christians who believe this but, unless I am mistaken, it is not an official doctrine of any Christian denomination except for Mormonism.

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A rejection of eternal torture would probably be unanimously accepted by the few Universalist Christian churches that are left (both within and outside of the UUA). Some of these Christians might also believe in some form of purgatory.

You might be interested to know that Liberal Catholic Church teaches Universalism, that all will be saved, thus rejecting eternal torture. They are also influenced by theosophy and generally believe in a pre-existent life as spirit and reincarnation.

I don't think Mormonism should be included as a Christian denomination. It's too different.

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It's definitely not mainstream, but I wouldn't say it isn't Christian. Baptists and the Eastern Orthodox are worlds apart, but they're both Christian.

In my opinion, universalism is not -- from the Eastern Orthodox perspective -- properly called a heresy. It is a theologoumenon -- a theological opinion that is neither dogma nor heresy. Many Orthodox would disagree; no less an authority than Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky claimed that apokatastasis had been anathematized by the Fifth Ecumenical Council, but it was a particular expression of apokatastasis that was anathematized, and not -- in my view -- any and all beliefs in apokatastasis.

I think it says something that St. Gregory of Nyssa, one of the great Fathers of the Church, was a proponent of universalism, and that the strongest detractors of his teaching included such people as Tertullian (an open heretic) and Augustine (Orthodox but not reliable, and the root of most of what's wrong with Western Christianity).

EverChanging said:

It's definitely not mainstream, but I wouldn't say it isn't Christian. Baptists and the Eastern Orthodox are worlds apart, but they're both Christian.

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Mormonism is radically polytheistic, while the mainstream denoms are monotheistic.

I'm not a Christian, but, I have tended to read and learn about Christian beliefs, especially early Christianity, and, I don't think universalism is completely in contrast to Christianity, many Church Fathers held to a similar view, like Origen, Clement of Alexanria, and many other Christians who are part of, what is called, "mainstream" Christianity, it's only those who hold to more fundamentalist beliefs that think only those who part of their Church are Saved.

If I'm correct, I thiink Methodists, and Anglicans hold to a form of universal salvation as well.

I just found this site with some interesting things to say, A FUNDAMENTALIST ERROR: "UNIVERSAL SALVATION OF CHRISTIAN SPIRITUALISM IS A FALSE TEACHING DENYING THAT JESUS BOUGHT THEM AT THE CROSS"?:

Midnight Pete said:

I don't think Mormonism should be included as a Christian denomination. It's too different.

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Mormons believe in Jesus Christ. He is our Savior every bit as much as He is yours. Back in His day, recognition of that fact was all that was required to be called a Christian. Yeah, I realized that the rules have changed over time, but I'm not going to stop calling myself a Christian just because somebody I don't even know wants me to. So, back to the OP...

Midnight Pete said:

Mormonism is radically polytheistic, while the mainstream denoms are monotheistic.

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Not just polythesitic, but radically so, huh? Well, just ask any Muslim on this forum and he'll tell you that the doctrine of the Trinity is polythistic and that mainstream Christianity is polytheistic. It's all in your perspective. But again, back to the OP...

As an Universalist, I have people all the time telling me that I am a heretic. Most of their claims of heresy revolve around ideas like it "undermines God's justice", "we don't take sin seriously", "or "it takes away our choice". In response to the first claim I tell them that the idea of eternal damnation undermines God's justice because it says that God is incapable of reconciling the whole creation, or it is punishment
for punishment's sake by having the creation tortured forever and ever without any hope of relief.

For me and my fellow Universalists we believe that punishment will only be temporary and it's rehabilitative in nature. This temporary punishment will cleanse us of sin and aimlessness by the power of God's love before we are reconciled. In response to the second claim, we do take sin seriously. Our brother Jesus taught us that we are to forgive not once or twice by seventy times seven, he also taught us in the Lord's prayer that we are to forgive debts as we forgive our debtors. Those two teachings alone take sin pretty seriously. Finally, we believe that people have moral and social agency that is free will but we do not have the free will to resist God's love and grace. God will get what God desires in the end. Salvation is not merited in any way, and it is by God's providential grace alone. God is able and will reconcile ALL SOULS, Christian or not. God's mission of salvation and redemption cannot fail.

I find that the reasons why people have a hard time accepting the gospel of God's success are as follows:
1. They feel that God is unable to forgive them or anyone else of their sins
2. They use hell as a moral ledger book. They claim that if people avoided punishment in this life then they will be punished in the hereafter. This serves as a comfort to some people.
3. They fear losing their privileged status as one of the "elect" and them being upset at God's radical inclusion and love.
3. They use hell as "I told you so" talking point.
4. They find it hard to love all of God's children even the more difficult ones.
5. They have a hard time seeing the light of God in all.

Mormonism is radically polytheistic, while the mainstream denoms are monotheistic.

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I'm definitely not a fan of Mormonism or the LDS church at all, but you're blatantly prejudiced. The doctrine of the trinity is not at all purely monotheistic. Three different persons are all divine. You may call it one God, and maybe it is, but it's definitely not strict monotheism. It's more like a hybrid of monotheism and polytheism.

You also seem to be forgetting that it is questionable whether Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox are monotheistic in practice. There are patron saints for anything you could think of -- animals, the environment, cats, TV, etc. and innumerable prayers and devotions addressed to the saints. That doesn't at all look like monotheism, and yet you accept them as Christians and not Mormons.

So again, my comparison holds. Baptists and the Eastern Orthodox are worlds apart, but they're both Christian. Same goes for Mormons until you come up with a better argument.

If I'm correct, I thiink Methodists, and Anglicans hold to a form of universal salvation as well.

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Many, but not all, Anglicans (at least in the more liberal provinces) believe in universalism. I would imagine that many Methodists do as well.

EverChanging said:

I'm definitely not a fan of Mormonism or the LDS church at all, but you're blatantly prejudiced. The doctrine of the trinity is not at all purely monotheistic. Three different persons are all divine. You may call it one God, and maybe it is, but it's definitely not strict monotheism. It's more like a hybrid of monotheism and polytheism.

You also seem to be forgetting that it is questionable whether Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox are monotheistic in practice. There are patron saints for anything you could think of -- animals, the environment, cats, TV, etc. and innumerable prayers and devotions addressed to the saints. That doesn't at all look like monotheism, and yet you accept them as Christians and not Mormons.

So again, my comparison holds. Baptists and the Eastern Orthodox are worlds apart, but they're both Christian. Same goes for Mormons until you come up with a better argument.

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I was just passing by, curious to see what's happened here since I left and I saw this. Even though I hadn't intended to post, this made me want to and who knows, maybe I'll stick around.

Anyway, firstly I'd like to point out that we Orthodox do not have, contrary to this post, patron saints for things. That's a peculiarity of Roman Catholicism. There is no official patron saint of this or that in Orthodoxy, though there are saints that people may end to turn to under certain circumstances and we do all have our patrons.

Secondly, I'd like to point out that we do not by any stretch of the imagination worship saints or pray to them. What we do do is ask for their prayers, much as we would ask someone alive to pray for us. This says more about our attitude to those who have passed on (i.e. we consider them to be alive in the Church Triumphant) than it does any kind of polytheist tendency. While I agree to an extent with the poster's comments regarding the range of Christian belief, any impression that either we or the RCs are in any way polytheist merely shows the poster's confusion as to what constitutes veneration and what worship.

As to universalism, it is something that we Orthodox are perfectly free to hope and pray for and, as someone pointed out earlier, this is an attitude shared by some of the Fathers. We don't tend to view hell as a literal place of punishment (and despite certain remarks to the contrary earlier in the thread this does not negate the purpose of the Incarnation one iota). It is not heresy to wish, or believe that God wants all to be saved and to hope that all will be saved eventually. We pray for the dead, so we clearly do not believe that death is the end of all possibility for salvation, though we have no concept of Purgatory. I am even free to pray for the demons that they may be reconciled to God. What I am not free to do, and what we consider heresy, is to teach that all absolutely will be saved. The reason this is heresy is that it presupposes that God must violate the free will of those who wish to remain estranged from Him. The idea that God will force us to love Him if we refuse is where the heresy lies.

Personally I am absolutely as universalist in my beliefs as one can be without crossing this line. I would also point out, however, that Orthodox soteriology is radically different to the western version. As we see things everyone who is reconciled to God is reconciled through Christ because all of creation is reconciled to the Creator through the Incarnation. It is this reconciliation that makes salvation possible for anyone at all. Under this understanding universal salvation would in no way imply different paths to God.